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From the article:
“From 26 AD until 34 AD there are two time the First day of Unleavened Bread is a double Sabbath ( 27, 30) and two times the preparation day fall on a Wednesday (28, 31). judaismvschristianity.com/Passover_dates.htm will verify the above dates.”
This entire premise is based on an impossibility. It is not possible that either of the calendars in use by the Jewish Rabbis or the Jewish Karaites are the correct calendar. It is not possible that the correct calendar is a lunar calendar. It is not possible.
“God’s day begins at sunset and ends at the next sunset.”
This again is based on an assumption. There is nothing in Scripture which stipulates that the day begins at evening. Scripture records only verses which stipulate that a day begins when a day begins, and not when it ends. The day and the night “HE MADE SEPARATE.” Let no man join together what the Almighty has made separate. This is very important. The words He chose to use in Scripture should not be disregarded in favor of the words which make more sense to us.
“There are 12 hours in the night…”
I would ask where this comes from in Scripture. Rather, there are 12 hours in the day. Always. This would require flexible hours. The flexible hours would be determined by the Sun itself. What would determine the hours at night? Scripture speaks only of ‘watches’ during the night. Watch in the night. Watch in the night. Watch in the night…
“A 24 hour day begins in darkness and the day brings the light.”
There is no such thing as a 24 hour ‘day’ in Scripture.
“Mankind begins in darkness and is brought into the light of Truth.”
I contend that mankind began in light, and descended into darkness when sin crept in. Was Adam created in darkness? or did Adam BRING the darkness. Man’s end will come either when he perishes in the flames, or when he returns to the light. The work of the Father began in light. Where He is, there is light. Darkness is a result of something coming between the Father and His creation.
As a rule, I try never to rule out possibilities prematurely. To do so is a cause of much consternation and dilemma. However, in the case of the calendar, which I have studied intensely for many years, the prospect of ANY form of lunar calendar being the correct form of calendar, is a non-starter. A complete study of the subject renders this truth an absolute. Nothing can be said by man to alter this axiom. I spent MANY years in search of WHICH lunar calendar was the CORRECT lunar calendar. Only toward the end of the study did I learn that I had been searching amiss. Any form of lunar calendar is wrong because Scripture does not leave open another possibility. In order for a lunar calendar to be used, the assumptions which have to be made are too many to count – not the least of which is the idea that the calendar which IS spoken of in Scripture, is described in some sort of ‘prophetic’ language which doesn’t really mean what it says. We can’t do this anymore. Give the lie to the rabbis. Do not give the lie to the Scriptures. The Scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say.
HOWEVER – I agree with the initial premise of the article, which is that the Messiah WAS NOT resurrected on what we call ‘Sunday.’ He is the Master of the Sabbath. He is never called Master of any other day. The only thing which should be busy on the Sabbath is Salvation. There is Salvation in rest. There is no work in rest.
Beef
I do realize a lot of what I wrote does not match with your beliefs but I did not make it up – all came from the Word, for example the 12 hour day is in John 11:9, and the terms they use; the 6th hour, the 9th hour. I read no where of the 18th hour.
All students of our Savior are to follow Him as He follows our Father. With the mental and spirit ability given me by His Holy Spirit that is all what I must do.
Christ has said not many wise men are called which I take to mean the movers and shakers of this world, the intellectuals, will hardly follow or obey Christ. He is not looking for the smart folks. I have run in those circles all my life I know who they are and what they are.
I can not find where I am to become an intellectual master of the calendar to gain salvation or that it is up to me to calculate the when of God’s Sabbaths. As I stated in the article, the events of the Passover and His sacrifice all took place on the same days the Jews kept.
Did God make a mistake?
Other then discerning in the Truth of God’s Word, how I am to follow Christ and then submitting myself to Christ with my limited ability and trusting Him to make up what I am short of. I do not have the time or the brain power to follow other roads that have no part in my salvation. My salvation does not depend on a calendar is what I am saying.
If I walk in an incorrect direction it is up to my Savior and my Father to correct me,
And They have. I also use this as a guide: I can do what is right for the wrong reasons and I can do what is wrong for the right reasons. the first way I will be severely chasten and for the second, gently corrected. In any event I must look to God to shine a light on the narrow path He has set before me, that is the path of Righteousness.
I am not trying to be argumentative but only to explain my simple approach to my salvation.
Either by my death of old age or the first resurrection, the end is near for me. I have been corrected and tried many times but the path I was placed on, He has never altered.
Truthseeker wrote:
“…for example the 12 hour day is in John 11:9, and the terms they use; the 6th hour, the 9th hour…”
I don’t dispute it. A day has 12 hours. This much is said by Messiah Himself. Beyond that, we add to the word if we insist that a day has 24 hours. A day has 12 hours. And in order for this to be true, which it most certainly is, the length of the hours themselves must be flexible, as opposed to ridged, 60 ‘minute’ blocks of ‘time.’ The implications of this aspect are actually very significant and far-reaching.
“All students of our Savior are to follow Him as He follows our Father. With the mental and spirit ability given me by His Holy Spirit that is all what I must do.”
That is exactly so. And my report to the brethren is that I have stood on the wall and have seen that the metrics for measurement we have been handed by antiquity and by tradition, are flawed metrics. We can’t rely on them for looking backward in time, or for looking forward; nor can we rely on them to accurately tell us what ‘time’ it is now. We are in the unenviable predicament of having lost the legitimate means by which we are to mark time, according to the Word. Unenviable indeed. This is part of our punishment for disobedience, as YHWH said it would be. This too is significant.
“As I stated in the article, the events of the Passover and His sacrifice all took place on the same days the Jews kept.”
This is not necessarily the case, as we will find aptly demonstrated by the conflicting time-lines given in the Gospel accounts. John does not agree with the synoptic Gospels. Is some one of the Apostles or Disciples wrong, or is it the others? Or were there actually two conflicting calendars being observed by two groups of people. If there were two calendars, they were very close to each other during the time of Messiah’s sacrifice. Clues in Scripture are left for a reason. And this isn’t an exercise in intellectual prowess, but rather a test of our attention to detail. Let the Word light the path. Not the rabbis. The rabbis are wrong. They are wrong about EVERYTHING.
“My salvation does not depend on a calendar is what I am saying.”
This is probably a fair statement. But what have I done except reply to what you have written? You are relying on a metric which I have discovered to be a flawed, if not an outright false, metric. This may well become increasingly important in the coming days. The ‘Restoration of All Things’ will most assuredly include a restoration of the biblically-correct calendar. When brothers are using the lunar calendars in order to ‘prove’ their arguments, I speak up. This is a perfect example of why I feel we should be much more sparing in our use of the word ‘proof.’ A better word might be, and almost always is, ‘evidence.’
“Either by my death of old age or the first resurrection, the end is near for me…”
Is this not the case with all of us? Of course it is. You chose the topic. I agree with your premise, as I have stated. I do not, I cannot, agree with the tools you have chosen to make the measurements you have attempted to make.
“I have been corrected and tried many times but the path I was placed on, He has never altered.”
I hope you don’t confuse my commentary for a suggestion to change your path. Let it not be. I merely advocate for more judicious usage of the windshield wipers when it’s raining. And look… it’s raining.
beef
I found no flaw between John and the others and in the article I went through them word by word, what have I missed?
As to the Day, it depends where you are on the surface of the earth. God figures time from Jerusalem. and yes depending on the seasons, the daylight can be shorter or longer then the darkness but the average is 12 hours of darkness and 12 hours of light, it does not matter when sunset is there 24 hours between except in Montana LOL. Alaska is even worse with no sunset sometimes.
The Bible uses day to mean both 12 hours and 24 and you must understand the context.
When it says a day is as a 1000 years it is not 12 hours.
Do you read all 4 Gospels to say Christ was killed at 3:PM (9th hour) the same time as the last Passover lambs were killed? And on the preparation day of the 14th?
What I wrote using scripture proves the Sabbath was not changed to Sunday by the Resurrection and also the only sign Christ gave of 3 days and 3 nights is dead on.
If anyone gets anything out of this work it must be these two facts.
Remember Paul comparison to the body, all can not be the head or the eyes but all have a purpose.
About 2 years ago I set out to reprove to myself the trunk of the tree “The Faith once delivered”. it is a big tree and I am still working on it. I just showed in the previous article that faith is understanding Authority, with what is just before us FAITH is what we all must contend for ASAP. We will soon be walking through the valley of the shadow of death, to do so we must know for certain who is in charge.
Truthseeker wrote:
“I found no flaw between John and the others and in the article I went through them word by word, what have I missed?”
There are no flaws. But there is a problem for advocates of only ONE calendar. Here is a good place to start:
Luke 22:7
Then came the day of Unleavened Bread, when the Passover must be killed.
The verses following make it clear which day this was. This could in no way be the day on which Messiah was sacrificed. Now the above verse is read, AND THEN come the instructions to make ready the Passover, a time consuming ordeal. Imagine how unwieldy this event would be if Messiah’s instructions to BEGIN to enter the city, to find the good man of the house carrying the water pitcher (another clue of something important), and then to begin preparations for the Passover meal, came only once the evening arrived. Is there any logic in that? A day-begins-in-the-evening paradigm is a very uncomfortable fit for this passage. If the day begins when the day actually begins, then there is no need to impose an uncomfortable fit.
Continuing in verse 13:
And they went, and found as He had said to them: AND THEY MADE READY THE PASSOVER.
This passage is describing the events immediately preceding the Last Supper. Messiah hands Judas the ‘sop’ at that meal, and Judas took it, and left:
John 13:30
He then having received the sop went immediately out, AND IT WAS NIGHT.
Later that night, came the Garden of Gethsemane, the apprehension and the imprisonment. Messiah was not tortured and killed until the following day.
So whose version of the events is the correct version?
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the ‘staurou’ on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
Now which of these days was actually the preparation for the first day of Unleavened Bread? Either the Gospel accounts contradict each other, or Peter was a very fast runner and an even faster cook. OR… There were conflicting days of preparation, because there was a discrepancy between the genuine Calendar of Scripture, and the not-so-genuine calendar of the Pharisees.
Truthseeker wrote:
“The Bible uses day to mean both 12 hours and 24 and you must understand the context.
When it says a day is as a 1000 years it is not 12 hours.”
I agree that ‘day’ can mean periods of time GREATER than one 12 hour daylight portion. But I dispute that there is even one example in Scripture of ‘day’ meaning a period of 24 hours. Perhaps you could point to one. If you point to the first chapter of Genesis, I will argue against those verses indicating a 24 hour ‘day’, as I have done elsewhere, and for the same reasons.
“What I wrote using scripture proves the Sabbath was not changed to Sunday by the Resurrection and also the only sign Christ gave of 3 days and 3 nights is dead on.”
Proof? There’s that word again. There is no authorization for a change from the SEVENTH DAY to the FIRST DAY when observing the Sabbath of YHWH. Even the Papists will admit to this. I do not disagree with you on this point. Three days and three nights is probably misunderstood by most, if not all, of us. I agree, however, that on whichever day Messiah died, He rose on the Seventh Day Sabbath for that particular week, and not on any other day.
BEEF,
You said:
“There are 12 hours in the night…I would ask where this comes from in Scripture.”
How about the 40 days and 40 nights of Noah’s flood?
“And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.”
—Genesis 7:12
Ummm, am?
I don’t dispute the existence of night. I deny that we should apply 12 hours to its duration, when the Scriptures, very conspicuously, never do so.
There is a unit of measurement consistently applied to the night, but it is never the hour.
The prophetic scenario started on what we would call Thursday night (or Friday night in the Biblical or Jewish way of thinking) in the Garden of Gethsemane, for Jesus said:
“And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.”
—MARK 8:31
Notice the scenario includes suffering, rejection of the elders, priests, and scribes. The suffering and rejection started in the Garden of Guthsemane on Friday night in the Biblical timeline (Thursday after sunset in our modern timeline) as per Mark chapter 14 starting in verse 41 and onwards. Jesus was mocked and ridiculed by the elders, priests and scribes and Peter denied Him 3 times and Jesus was beaten, mocked, etc. And then on Friday day time, Jesus was crucified.
HERE IS THE COMPLETE 3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS:
Friday night (after sunset on Thursday in modern timeline) – Garden of Guthsemane
Friday day – Jesus was crucified
Saturday night (after sunset on Friday in modern timeline) – Jesus in tomb
Saturday day – Jesus in tomb
Sunday night (after sunset on Saturday in modern timeline) – Jesus in tomb
Sunday day – Jesus was resurrected!
Regarding the timeline, the Gospels tell us that Jesus would rise on the THIRD DAY. See Matthew 16:21, 17:23, and 20:19.
So it is clear Jesus was to rise from death on the THIRD DAY. So what does on the THIRD DAY mean? Here is a usage of the “third day” from Exodus which I believe is a pre-cursor or foretelling of the resurrection of Jesus, where the LORD tells Moses that He will appear to the Israelites on the third day:
9And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
10And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11And be ready against the third day: for the THIRD DAY the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
—EXODUS 19:9-11
Notice the sequence described above. The LORD tells Moses to sanctify the people today and tomorrow and then on the third day, He would appear to them. This is not a 72 hour period. The LORD counted today as day 1, tomorrow as day 2, and the following day as day 3. In modern language, one could say the day after tomorrow. This sequence fits in with the FRI-SUN scenario where Sunday would be the third day.
am123
Please explain how the women were at the tomb just before sundown, saw where He lay then went into town, because this took place out of the town, where all the shops were closed because it is the Sabbath and bought all of the spices and ointments took them home and prepared them and then rested on the Sabbath Day as they are Commanded.
These were super fast women to accomplish all of that in 5 minutes or even 30 minutes.
This only works if they have the Friday in between to accomplish this task. They had to mix the spices and ointments, maybe even cooking both to make them suitable for rubbing on the body.
This is a major problem for your 36 hours, of Course there are many more problems which you will just brush under the rug like all the catholic’s that invented this “story”
Truthseeker,
You said “Please explain how the women were at the tomb just before sundown”.
——————————————————————————————-
Easy. They had a BIG CLUE.
nudge nudge
They knew He would rise on the THIRD DAY (which in modern terms is the day after tomorrow)
Pretty simple when you think about it!
Truthseeker,
I use “third day” as enunciated by the Bible itself, when the LORD said to Moses:
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
—Exodus 19:9-11
Notice in the sequence described above how the LORD tells Moses to sanctify the people today and tomorrow and then on the third day, He would appear to them
This is not a 72 hour period.
The LORD counted today as day 1, tomorrow as day 2, and the following day as day 3.
In modern vernacular, one would say “the day after tomorrow”.
This sequence fits in with the FRI-SUN scenario where SUN would be the THIRD DAY
You are a (please forgive my alliteration
) a “train of thought totally off the tracks” with this 72 hour thing I can’t say it any simpler than that TS
The resurrection took place on the THIRD DAY
am123
did you just read the first part of the first sentence, and make a senseless answer?
You did not read the whole article and you did not read my question to you on how the women had time to buy and prepare to anoint the body with minutes before sundown?
While we are at it, do you not understand about the Feast of Unleavened Bread that is on the 15th, it is a Holy Sabbath Day and begins with eating the Passover Lamb. These women would actually need to return home to eat the Passover not try to buy from closed shops.
Do you not know the catholics are the ones who created this lie?
Truthseeker,
All I know is it had to take place in a 36 hour period, not a 72 hour period like you’re saying. And no, the Catholics didn’t “invent” this, it comes from the Word itself.
Surely you must admit that your theory is at odds with the LORDs time frame of the “third day” in Exodus 19:9-11 and Noah’s 40 days and 40 nights?
“a 36 hour period”
???
Surely you did not mean 36.
There is no way to derive “three days and three nights” from any continuous 36 hour period.
No, not a literal 36 hours. What I mean is for example, the day after tomorrow compared to today. Again, if the Passion started today, the resurrection would occur not tomorrow, but the day after tomorrow.
BTW, it could not have been a literal 72 hour period either.
“BTW, it could not have been a literal 72 hour period either.”
I tend to agree with that statement, because it is written many times: “The third day.”
However, we have this to contend with:
“…so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the ‘heart’ (καρδία kardia) of the earth.”
I am familiar with many arguments stipulating that this means something OTHER than in the grave, but I have not found them to be compelling arguments, to say the least.
I find that Messiah’s time “in the heart of the Earth” must be the time His flesh was dead, when it is written that He descended into the prison house of the spirits and preached to them that are dead.
Regarding the 3 days and 3 nights in the “heart” of the earth. I think it is a mistake to force this to be a literal 72 hours. And it leads to silly semantics, i.e. at what point did He resurrect, at 72:00:01? If so, wouldn’t that be on the 4th day? And so on.
No, I would rather keep it simple and let the Bible interpret itself, which we do have the luxury of in this case. Exodus 19:9-11 is a pretty clear example. Also, we have the following example from Esther:
Esther said in chapter 4 verse 16, fast for me for 3 days and 3 nights:
“Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.”
—Esther 4:16
And then it was ON THE THIRD DAY, Esther went before the king:
“Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king’s house”
—Esther 5:1
So how did they fast for Ester 3 days and 3 nights and how did she fast for 3 days and 3 nights if she went before the king on the 3rd day? Don’t you run into the same semantics here that you do with the 3 days and 3 nights of the passion/resurrection?
am123
why do you ignore, my question of the women? This is a key, why else would God the Father have Christ place it in His Word? What is the point in describing how they bought and prepared spices and ointments and then rested on the Sabbath as the Command??
Do you not answer because it is impossible for this to be jammed into 36 hours?
Truthseeker,
Where does the Word say they bought spices AND ointments? It only says they bought sweet spices after the Sabbath, so they bought them on Sunday morning. They already HAD spices and ointments before this. There is no problem here other than the semantics you are trying to dredge up.
To the bigger point of the whole thing, why won’t you answer my question about your 72 hour timeline not being in line with the use of the “third day” in Exodus 19:9-11?
am123
Luke 24: 56
“And they returned and prepared spices and ointments AND RESTED THE SABBATH DAY ACCORDING TO THE COMMANDMENT.”
It would be helpful it you actually knew the Bible!
Christ did rise on the third day, where does it say the morning of the third day or even at noon on the third day, if Christ rose on the Sabbath at 5:599 PM it was still ON the third day and still ON the Sabbath.
Now that the scripture is in front of you and states after buying and preparing they rested! please show how that is possible in 36 hours. I would love to see how you would jam that into the minutes before sundown and minutes before the Jews in Jerusalem began the Passover supper ? You think the Jews kept their shops open on the eve of Passover?
Going back to the exact Words of Christ — 3 days and 3 nights- My Savior does not exaggerate nor lie.
Funny how you claim I don’t know the Bible after quoting me the wrong chapter. You meant Luke 23:56. And this verse doesn’t say they bought the spices and ointments, does it? So that invalidates your point.
And isn’t it funny how you continue to major on the minors (and made up minors to boot) and you ignore the elephant in the room?
HERE IS THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM, WHICH TRUTHSEEKER IGNORES:
The use of the “THIRD DAY” by the LORD:
9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.
10 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
—Exodus 19:9-11
am123 wrote:
“Regarding the 3 days and 3 nights in the “heart” of the earth. I think it is a mistake to force this to be a literal 72 hours.”
I already said that I don’t insist on 72 hours.
“…wouldn’t that be on the 4th day?”
Nope. You can take that off the table.
“So how did they fast for Ester 3 days and 3 nights(?)”
This is a moot point, since no one is insisting on 72 hours. Please take note of this.
Truthseeker wrote:
“You think the Jews kept their shops open on the eve of Passover?”
Yet another reason that the ‘day-begins-in-the-evening’ concept brings needless confusion to an already confusing situation. If the day begins when the day begins, and is followed by darkness and the night, then the 14th is the day of preparation, the lamb is killed ‘between the evenings’ on the 14th, and the lamb is eaten on the evening/night of the 14th.
Then we have THIS to contend with: “For that Sabbath was a High Sabbath.”
Fact: We can only speculate as to the meaning of this statement. I can’t find a confirming witness for it. And we NEED a confirming witness, per the TORAH and per PAUL. Was it a High Sabbath because it was the first day of Unleavened Bread (1ULB) IN ADDITION to being the Seventh Day Sabbath? Nowhere else in Scripture is a Sabbath referred to as a High Sabbath, and I have not found any mention of a High Sabbath in any of the apocryphal or pseudepigraphical writings.
If it is so that 1ULB was ALSO the Seventh Day Sabbath for that particular seven-day set, then we can have a “Sunday” resurrection. But there is ample evidence that this was not the case – NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH is the fact that the order of things repeats; namely, the NEXT resurrection will not be on the EIGHTH DAY (which is also the ‘first’ – and “Sunday” is the first and the eighth), but will be on the SEVENTH DAY. This is of profound importance, and is my main reason for insisting that Messiah rose on the SEVENTH DAY of the ‘week’ He was sacrificed.
Then there is the controversy surrounding modern scribal error. ‘Mia ton Sabbaton’ IN NO WAY should be translated ‘first day of the week.’ This too is problematic for the “Sunday” advocates. I am aware of zero examples wherein scribes, redactors, or glossators, have altered the Scriptures to ACCURATELY reflect TRUTH. Rather, wherever the slime trail of scribal alteration leads, it leads invariably to error.
am123
Sorry you are correct, it sat on top of chapter 24 and I have a 3 year old and a 9 running around my office. I am distracted. and they are still here.
So let us try again:
Mark 16: 1
And when the Sabbath was past Mary Magdalene and Mary of James and Salome HAD BOUGHT sweet spices that they might come and anoint Him”
They already HAD bought, do you suppose they, way before sunrise, went to town bought, then prepared and then showed up before sunrise the first day of the week.
Again show how this fits into 36 hours.
am123
I just grabbed this one quick, it shows Passover on the 14th was changed by Catholic’s
Go on line and read the article “From Passover to Easter” in Prevail magazine.
I never saw this magazine before but it will give you the history of what you believe to be true.
Your Sunday morning Easter is Catholic, I am sure there are many more articles even on catholic sites
BEEF,
You wrote:
““So how did they fast for Ester 3 days and 3 nights(?)”
This is a moot point, since no one is insisting on 72 hours. Please take note of this”
TS seems to be insisting on 72 hours.
But anyway, it is not a moot point because any “problems” you or anyone wants to bring up about the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth applies to the passage in Esther as well.
Still no one addresses the elephant in the room I pointed out?
Anyone want to take a crack at it?
am123 wrote:
“But anyway, it is not a moot point because any “problems” you or anyone wants to bring up about the 3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth applies to the passage in Esther as well.”
And so it does. But the problem is this: ALL of the scriptural requirements have to be satisfied. Not just SOME of them. Thus, there must have been at least PART of three days and all of three nights, or PART of three nights and all of three days, in order for the Scripture to have been fulfilled. Three days and two nights doesn’t git’ ‘er done.
“Still no one addresses the elephant in the room I pointed out?”
Using the commonly accepted Hebraism, ‘the third day’, with the understanding you have demonstrated above, doesn’t change the fact that Messiah is the Master of the Sabbath and that He was almost certainly raised on the Seventh Day, for the very significant reasons I have pointed to above.
My contention is that 1ULB WAS NOT the Seventh Day Sabbath that ‘week.’ I contend that the Seventh Day Sabbath was on the 16th. I contend that THIS is the meaning of ‘High Sabbath’: Back-to-back Sabbaton (holy convocation) and Sabbath (Seventh Day Sabbath). This would mean Messiah died on the 14th, spent 1ULB (the 15th) in the heart of the earth, and rose some time on the 16th (watch in the night, lo, I come as a thief…). The following day (the 17th) would have been the Wave Sheaf offering of First Fruits, according to the Torah:
Leviticus 23:15
And ye shall count unto you FROM THE MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven Sabbaths shall be complete.
NOW THEN… This day begins the SEVEN SABBATH COUNT. This is the meaning of MIA TON SABBATON, which is translated as ‘first day of the week.’ It SHOULD BE translated as “ONE TO THE SABBATHS.” As it happens, the ‘Mary’s’ did show up at the tomb on the first day of the week, which we call “Sunday”, but this WAS NOT the day on which Messiah rose. Rather, it was the first opportunity for the women to resume the burial procedure they had begun on the EVENING of the 14th. The women could do no work on the 15th (1ULB) or the 16th (Seventh Day Sabbath – on which Messiah rose), so they came AT THE CRACK OF DAWN (if not a little before) on the 17th, which was the first day of the week, or what we call “Sunday.”
Now then… where’s that elephant you keep taking about?
BEEF,
You wrote:
“Thus, there must have been at least PART of three days and all of three nights, or PART of three nights and all of three days, in order for the Scripture to have been fulfilled.”
Bingo! And in the case of the resurrection, we are talking about a part of 3 days and a full 3 nights.
You wrote:
“so they came AT THE CRACK OF DAWN (if not a little before) on the 17th, which was the first day of the week, or what we call “Sunday.”
Bingo!
You wrote:
“Now then… where’s that elephant you keep taking about?”
The elephant I’m talking about is Exodus 19:9-11 gives us the context of the “third day” being the day after tomorrow. So I’m looking for you or TS (especially TS) to humor me and state if you agree with that assessment about Exodus 19:9-11 giving meaning to the “third day” as being the day after tomorrow. If you agree with that, the elephant in the room is why wouldn’t we apply that same definition and pattern to the passion, crucifixion, and resurrection?
BEEF,
You wrote:
“If it is so that 1ULB was ALSO the Seventh Day Sabbath for that particular seven-day set, then we can have a “Sunday” resurrection”
You also wrote:
“This would mean Messiah died on the 14th, spent 1ULB (the 15th) in the heart of the earth, and rose some time on the 16th”
Just FYI, Newton addresses the passion/crucifixion/resurrection sequence here:
http://www.newtonproject.sussex.ac.uk/view/texts/normalized/THEM00205
Regarding the High Sabbath, I believe Newton says that it is the 2nd of the two great feasts of Passover. His sequence is “the passion was on friday the 14th day of the month Nisan, the great feast of the Passover on saturday the 15th day of Nisan, and the resurrection on the day following.”
“So I’m looking for you or TS (especially TS) to humor me and state if you agree with that assessment about Exodus 19:9-11 giving meaning to the “third day” as being the day after tomorrow. If you agree with that, the elephant in the room is why wouldn’t we apply that same definition and pattern to the passion, crucifixion, and resurrection?”
Consider yourself so humored. Though I am at a loss as to why you place importance where you have, and as to how you have managed to perceive that I disagreed with you on these particular points.
I do not believe Messiah rose on the first day of the week. I do not believe Messiah rose on what we call “Sunday.” Rather, I find it to be of significant importance that He did not rise on “Sunday.” I find it to be of profound importance that He have no association with that day whatsoever. The Day of the Sun belongs to another.
The reasons are many. And this is THE major fork in the road which leads… where all roads lead. The Way is off-road, and leads well away from Rome.
Look at all the men on the highway. Are they doing it right? Is Sunday the day? Broad are the gates…
“Though I am at a loss as to why you place importance where you have, and as to how you have managed to perceive that I disagreed with you on these particular points”
Perhaps I have unintentionally impugned Truthseeker’s disagreement onto you. So, since you don’t disagree with the sentiment of the “third day” as espoused in Exodus 19:9-11 being the day after tomorrow, I place importance on this because it indicates if Jesus was crucified today for example, which is Thursday, He would resurrect on the day after tomorrow, which would be Saturday in this particular example. So this blows out of the water what Truthseeker, not you, is saying this article.
Regarding the Sabbath day:
“Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days”
—Colossians 2:16
“One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind.”
—Romans 14:5
Personally, I do not consider one day more sacred than another. Every day is sacred to me. I celebrate His resurrection and salvation every single day.
am123,
I can’t imagine why any of us would be comfortable allowing a man, any man, to overrule something YHWH has said and verified Himself. That being the case, I contend that nothing the Apostle Paul ever said actually contradicted anything spoken by YHWH. I think you might be overlooking something crucial in these verses:
Let NO MAN therefore judge you in meat…
One PERSON considers one day more sacred than another…
You wrote:
“Personally, I do not consider one day more sacred than another. Every day is sacred to me. I celebrate His resurrection and salvation every single day.”
There is no prohibition against doing so, that I am aware of. But there is an injunction to observe the Seventh Day Sabbath. And there is nothing in Scripture that would indicate the injunction has been lifted. The Apostles observed the Sabbaths and the Feasts even after Messiah had died, been resurrected, and ascended. This is a very serious problem for those of us claiming that the Instructions of the written Word from the Old Testament have been rendered obsolete, or otherwise removed from further obligating the people of YHWH.
So let NO MAN judge you in meat, and notice how one PERSON considers one day more sacred than another. This says nothing about relieving you of your obligation to guard the Sabbath. Furthermore, if those verses of Paul actually DID say, in unambiguous terms, that you have been relieved of your obligation to His Instructions, then you should be immediately set on your guard.
All of the verses of Paul which might seem to be saying what you insinuate they are saying, are ambiguous verses. Remember this fact when you recall that we will all render an accounting of our actions and decisions. Isn’t it possible that Paul is saying something else?
Isn’t Romans chapter 14 talking about the freedom we have in Christ, i.e. he that believes may eat all things in verse 2, and how believers should have their minds firmly made up on these matters? And those with a stronger in faith should not parade their freedom in front of another believer whose faith in not as strong, for if they do something they are not sure about, it becomes sinful for them.
You believe in a Saturday Sabbath, and knowing you from these discussions, I know you believe strongly in that—good for you! That is how God will judge your actions, from that perspective. So I do not judge you for that, and commend you for having your mind firm on the matter. I on the other hand, do not believe one day is greater than another, and my mind is firm on that. So on such matters, to each his own, and it is between them and God.
“You believe in a Saturday Sabbath, and knowing you from these discussions, I know you believe strongly in that—good for you!”
You should be more careful with your assumptions, am123, which is what this statement of yours is. I have NEVER said that I believe in a ‘Saturday Sabbath.’ The truth is, I DO NOT believe in a ‘Saturday Sabbath.’
“I on the other hand, do not believe one day is greater than another, and my mind is firm on that. So on such matters, to each his own, and it is between them and God.”
If we see the Apostles in the New Testament keeping the Sabbaths and observing the Feasts after the ascension of Messiah, why is this not problematic for your beliefs? Convictions can be dangerous things, am123. Especially when the Most High has been so EMPHATIC about His Instructions in this case. The importance of Sabbath observance has hardly been understated in the Scriptures. Then comes the Apostle Paul, who says a few words which do not even unambiguously say what you think they are saying, and you are ready to over-ride what the Almighty has stated repeatedly, in BOLD and FORCEFUL terms. I do not understand this. And I am not accusing you brother. I am not at liberty to accuse you. I am simply perplexed by several of your conclusions.
All are required to observe the Sabbaths. Even the land itself.
Is it really enough that there are certain verses in Scripture which IT IS POSSIBLE to construe as having rendered Sabbath observance obsolete, when there is not a single verse in Scripture which says so in unambiguous terms?
Every fiber of my being asks you to reconsider this.
BEEF, you said:
“You should be more careful with your assumptions, am123, which is what this statement of yours is. I have NEVER said that I believe in a ‘Saturday Sabbath.’ The truth is, I DO NOT believe in a ‘Saturday Sabbath.”
Sorry, excuse my poorly word post. Instead of saying:
“You believe in a Saturday Sabbath, and knowing you from these discussions, I know you believe strongly in that—good for you!””
I should have said the following BEEF:
“IF you believe in a SAT Sabbath, then knowing you from these discussions if that is what you believe, then I know you believe it strongly.”
That was my intent not that you were for a SAT Sabbath. Whatever you believe about the Sabbath I know you believe it strongly so good for you is what I truly meant BEEF. It was an error to say it the way I did giving the impression you were into a SAT Sabbath, especially when you are not, and so please accept my apologies BEEF, no harm intended!
Regarding my viewpoint that one day is no more important than another, let me qualify that by saying that is my viewpoint as a gentile covered by the blood of the Lamb in this current age or dispensation, but in the NEW AGE to come, when the LORD creates a new heavens and new earth and the Law of Moses is done away with and Ezekiel’s Sabbaths come into play, the SAT Sabbath offering will be 6 lambs and 1 ram. I’m into that Sabbath.
Having said that, riddle me this brother BEEF, you are not the only one who is puzzled, for you say you are not into a SAT Sabbath but yet, you also said:
“All are required to observe the Sabbaths. Even the land itself.”
When do you believe the Sabbath is then
Perhaps I should not assume you do not believe in a SUN sabbath?
Can you please clarify? Thanks in advance!
am123 wrote:
“IF you believe in a SAT Sabbath, then knowing you from these discussions if that is what you believe, then I know you believe it strongly.”
Translated: “Yes. You are stubborn and bull-headed, brother BEEF. Thus, whatever the hell it is you believe, I know you believe it very stubbornly.”
Compliment accepted and appreciated. But I do reserve the right to be wrong. And I have actually reversed myself several times on these BIN boards, but brothers tend to quickly forget about these things. My reputation for stiff-neckedness, though only partially deserved, is thoroughly enjoyed.
The Sabbath:
Thus sayeth BEEF…
The Sabbath can’t be found right now, with any certainty. We can reconstruct the Biblically CORRECT Calendar, and make it fit the Scriptures like a glove, but we can’t be certain of which day to begin the actual calendar count. We also can’t be certain of how to join one calendar year to another. This is the dilemma in a nut shell, grossly oversimplified.
However, if we DID know how to begin the count, we would begin the first day of the first month on the FOURTH day of the ‘week.’ Then the Sabbath would be three days later. So the first Seventh Day Sabbath would be on the fourth day of the first month. And that day would be consistent throughout the remainder of the year, with each subsequent Sabbath following seven days after the one before. Therefore, if the fourth day of the first month corresponded with what we call “Wednesday”, then the Sabbath would be on “Wednesday” for the remainder of the year. But that would change the following year. The following year, the Sabbath would be on “Tuesday” all year, and “Monday” the year after that.
According to the Biblically CORRECT Calendar, the Seventh Day Sabbath is not permanently connected with ANY day of the Roman Gregorian Week.
But as I said, we lack certain data for proper implementation of this system presently. So I do the only thing I know to do – which is to observe the Sabbath on the only OTHER seventh day I know. I do OBSERVE the Sabbath on “Saturday” because that’s all I can do for now. But Saturday is NOT the correct day on which to observe. Or, if it is, it is so for only one year in seven, every seven years.
And there we are.
OK, thanks again for the clarification BEEF.
And one more clarification on my position, my viewpoint during the Millennial Reign regarding the Sabbath is it will be the Moses-related Sabbath as declared by the LORD Himself who will be able to tell us when it is.
At this point I do not know how to answer anyone:
So I will restated the ONLY SIGN given by our Savior our Passover Lamb – Jesus Christ!
Please do not speed read
He said He would be in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights -period: This Sign by our Savior is your problem, not mine as I fully believe Jesus Christ. You are free to marginalize the words of Christ to your hearts are content.
Thursday at sunset at the split second of sundown He was in the tomb and the stone slammed shut.
Thursday night 12 hours
Thursday day 12 hours
Friday night 12 hours
Friday day 12 hours
Sabbath night 12 hours
Sabbath day 12 hours —
the day portion of the Sabbath is now the THIRD DAY of 12 hours, it is literally the third 24 hour day and it is literally the third 12 hour period call day. He rose on the Third Day at the split second of sundown while it was yet the Sabbath.
I have tighten this down to split seconds to show neither Jesus Christ nor the others that state He rose on the third day are incorrect, they all are correct.
He was in the grave for 3- 24 hour days and
He was in the grave for 3-12 hour periods of day. He rose on the third day.
And the women bought and prepared the spices on Friday and rested on the Sabbath.
Where is the passion (Garden of Guthsemane) and crucifixion in your timeline? I believe you maintain the passion and crucifixion was on Wed. If that is true, if Jesus was crucified on Wed., then according to the pattern of the “third day” given in Exodus 19:9-11, He would have rose on Friday. Your scenario does not fit.
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
I think you will agree that the mainstream Christian idea of Good Friday to Sunday Morning is a lie and a mockery. Unless you are going call Yashua Anointed a false prophet and liar.
So how did Jesus spend 3 whole days and 3 whole nights in the heart of the earth if He rose on the third day?
Well clearly that would have been at the end of the third day i.e. when it was over so that three days and three nights would have been completed and His prophecy fulfilled.
As I said unless YOU are calling Yashua Anointed a false prophet and liar as mainstream Christianity does each year without fail by keeping the ‘good’ Friday to Sunday morning garbage.
Actually there is a valid reason for calling Good Friday, good, but it’s not what mainstreamers think, but then is it ever?
If the resurrection was “at the end of the third day i.e. when it was over” like you said, it would not have been ON the third day like Jesus claimed, but would have been on the 4th day. So clearly, it could not have occurred after the third day.
@ am 123
Now your infantile hair splitting is becoming more ridiculous than a gnat straining Pharisee.
Once the 72 hours were complete He rose from the dead at the exact moment necessary. Not second before nor a second over. What is it that is blocking your mental capacity to absorb this simple Truth?
What I am waiting to hear is how you square late Friday afternoon to Sunday morning as three days and three nights, just as Jonah was in the fishes belly thereby making Yashua Anointed a liar and a false prophet.
Why, too, are you so closed minded and stiff necked? Is it that closed trinity you believe in?
The ridiculous semantics arise when people like you and TS erroneously try to squeeze a full 72 hours into the sequence.
Regarding my timeline of 3 days and 3 nights, I enumerated it in my first post in this article.
There is no squeezing other than in the constrictions of your error filled mind.
Perhaps you should refer to the events of the day of the Crucifixion when Joseph of Arimethaea went and asked for The Lord’s body to be taken down so that he could place it in his tomb which he had made available for The Lord’s use. This occurred late on the Tuesday afternoon prior to sunset and the commencement of the first Passover High Day Sabbath.
Yashua Anointed was then laid in the tomb at the precise moment to the last second before The Sabbath started – He left the tomb Friday sunset (after three days and three nights) just as the final second struck before the commencement of the weekly Sabbath.
Once the weekly Sabbath started there would have been no visitors to the tomb until early the first day of the week by the groups of women (there was more than one group of women visiting the tomb)
I trust this clarifies things in your confused mind.
You said:
“He rose on the Third Day at the split second of sundown while it was yet the Sabbath.”
This is silly. Are you saying Jesus rose after 72 hours and a few nanoseconds? Wouldn’t that technically be the “fourth day”?
am
I will answer when you give an answer to the women and the spices.
The women bought the spices on Sunday.
If you’re going to only answer one question, I’d rather it be the one question you’ve been avoiding, that is, do you believe that Exodus 19:9-11 tells us that the “third day” means the day after tomorrow? If not, why not. If so, doesn’t that throw a monkey wrench into your scenario?
“The women bought the spices on Sunday.”
Very unlikely am.
Luke 23:56
“And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested on the Sabbath day according to the Commandment.”
am123
Exodus 19: 9 – I do not get the connection? I read; sanctify the people today and tomorrow and the third day, verse 16 says in the morning.
This is not 3 days and 3 nights, this is simply get cleaned up in two days time and I will be back on the morning of the 3rd day. This is very clear except the time of day when Christ said sanctify “today”.
Who’s words are more important? Jesus Christ or some other person? I showed in one of my responses that Christ was resurrected on the 3rd day. Can you show me the scripture that explicitly points out the time on that third day Christ will be resurrected? No they all only point to the third day.
What is it to you if God the Father raises His First Born Son to eternal life in the last tenth of a second of the Sabbath day.
By your comments I am not even sure you read what I take the time to write? I know you did not read my full article.
In your comment below you said the women bought the spices on sunday, I had ruled that totally out many comments before. Do you even check the scriptures before you comment?
Did you check out the catholic connection? Easter Sunday is a catholic created day and all her daughters that came out of her keep Easter, Sunday and Xmas, etc. Jesus Christ sanctions none of those days.
BEEF said:
“The women bought the spices on Sunday.”
Very unlikely am.
Luke 23:56
“And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested on the Sabbath day according to the Commandment.”
OCT 17, 2013, 5:07 PM
===============
“And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.”
—Mark 16:1
TS said:
“In your comment below you said the women bought the spices on sunday, I had ruled that totally out many comments before. Do you even check the scriptures before you comment?”
Yes, yes I do check the Scriptures. See my post to BEEF. Mark 16:1 tells us the women bought the spices on SUN.
“Mark 16:1 tells us the women bought the spices on SUN.”
There is a recurring problem here, I think. You tend to leave verses unaccounted for. In the light of Luke 23:56, Mark 16:1 cannot be saying what you think it is saying.
We see in Mark 16:1…
…Sabbath was past, Mary (et al.) HAD BOUGHT sweet spices, that they might come and anoint Him
So when HAD they bought?
Luke 23:54–56 doesn’t leave any question about the matter. If the women PREPARED the spices and ointments ON THE PREPARATION DAY, and then rested on the Sabbath, it is NOT POSSIBLE that they BOUGHT the spices they PREPARED on the day AFTER the Sabbath. That is, unless they bought them on credit, and paid for them two days later – which again is highly unlikely, because the Torah frowns on borrowing and credit, and would render the point meaningless in the mix.
There is NO REASON to assume that the spices were not purchased at the same time they were procured for processing. And the spices were procured for processing ON THE PREPARATION DAY. And since this preparation day is PRIOR to the Sabbath, it cannot be, and is not, the day AFTER the Sabbath.
I am afraid this matter leaves precious little room for other interpretations.
(Though I eagerly await what am123 brings to the table in an effort to escape the conundrum in which he presently finds himself.)
BEEF,
You said:
“In the light of Luke 23:56, Mark 16:1 cannot be saying what you think it is saying.”
This is how I see it:
Luke 23:56 tells us that the women of Gallilee prepared spices and ointments, which they already had, and then rested on the Sabbath.
But then, AFTER the Sabbath, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of Jesus, and Salome bought “sweet spices” to anoint Jesus with:
“And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.”
—Mark 16:1
So I ask, cannot the women of Galilee mentioned in Luke be a different set of women than the 2 Mary’s and Salome mentioned in Mark? For surely, Mark 16:1 clearly states that when the Sabbath was PAST, then the 2 Mary’s and Salome bought “sweet spices”.
I would also ask, in all of Galilee, did not more than 3 women believe in and follow Jesus to the cross and grave?
Do so if you will. But you know as well as I do that the ‘Marys’ were from Galillee. We know also that by changing the word order of your verse, the meaning is not changed, but the clarity might be:
The Marys HAD BOUGHT SPICE. And when the Sabbath was passed…
That’s what’s actually there. “HAD BOUGHT” When the Sabbath was passed, they HAD BOUGHT. They didn’t buy on the Sabbath — that much I will tell you. Yet by Sabbath’s end, they HAD BOUGHT.
Many times we are not presented with this level of clarity. When we are, we should seek the advantage of it, no?
“Many times we are not presented with this level of clarity. When we are, we should seek the advantage of it, no?”
Indeed. And on the bigger issue here, from Exodus 19:9-16 and Leviticus 19:5-6, we are given precise clarity on the meaning of the “third day”.
Regarding the Marys, yes they were from Galilee. But there were other women from Galilee as well and when you parse Mark 16:1, you can’t get away from the fact that it is saying they bought the spices when Sabbath was past.
Why call out the fact that they bought spices in this verse? What about the ointment, why not call that out as well? And why call out SWEET spices, are they different than the regular spices (perhaps not used for the same purpose?)? But this is a minor point in relation to the bigger issue here.
The bigger issue is the Seventh Day.
We are not yet contending with the Eighth Day.
The patterns of repetition we are offered throughout the Narrative should be applied in this instance, as well as many others.
Additionally, the urge to attach Messiah to ANY day of the Gregorian Week should be resisted strenuously. The resurrection could have (though I emphatically insist that it did not) occur on the Eighth Day, and STILL bear no connection with the Roman Sun Day.
The OTHER guy is the Sun god. That day belongs to him. In YHWH’s Calendar, the eighth day is not Sun Day, save for one year in seven. For all we know, Messiah was resurrected on a Tuesday.
OK then BEEF, whatever day Messiah was crucified on, do you agree then, by using the meaning of the “third day” as given precedent in the Word, that whatever day He was crucified on, He arose on the second day from the crucifixion, which would be the third day. So if He was resurrected on TUE in your example, He would have been crucified on SUN.
I believe so. I believe that Messiah did not spend the entirety of three days and three nights in the grave. I believe He did not have to. Furthermore, I believe He must not have in order for the numerous places in Scripture where it is written He will rise on ‘the Third Day’ to be fulfilled. Once again, all of the Scriptures must be fulfilled; not some of them. This is the only satisfactory understanding I have managed to arrive at.
The Hebrew idiom is, as you say, ‘today, tomorrow, and the third day.’ This idiom factors very heavily throughout the Old Testament. In order for this to work, however, Messiah must have been laid in the tomb some time prior to evening on the 14th day of the month. Thus, by evening of the 14th, one day of the three has been fulfilled. I see no reason at all to require an ENTIRE 12 hour day, times three. Moreover, I do not believe the Scriptures can be fulfilled if we insist on three entire 12 hour days.
Bingo! I agree with everything you said there.
Of course, nothing I have said should be used to advocate for a spurious connection between the Resurrection of our Boss, and the Roman Day of the Sun.
Have you studied this Sun god dude? ‘Ra’ ‘Helios’ ‘Apollo’ ‘Sol Invictus’… All the same dude. The Roman Calendar was designed and oriented with this cat in mind. He has no part in Messiah, and we should shun everything connected with him.
Leave Sunday to the Sun worshippers.
No, I have not studied “Ra” or whoever, nor do I actually care to
. And isn’t there a pagan connection to each of the days?
To put things in perspective, we can quibble about the particular day of the resurrection, but the first and foremost thing should be believing that the resurrection happened of course. And then we must deal with what the Scriptures say about the prophecy of the third day in regards to the resurrection.
“No, I have not studied “Ra” or whoever, nor do I actually care to (emoticon terminated). And isn’t there a pagan connection to each of the days?”
There is indeed a pagan association with each of the seven days of the Roman calendar. The Roman calendar works in our present, blemished system. And it will NOT work after the Restoration of All Things, when YHWH’s Calendar will work flawlessly. But for now, there isn’t a day or an event on YHWH’s Calendar which has any abiding connection with the Pagan week days. The importance of this fact should not be lost on those of us called to search out and appreciate such things.
If you know a little bit about the enemy, you can read the ubiquitous language of symbols he splashes across everything in this world. There is universal and increasing usage of a symbol which represents the BIRTH of the Sun god. It is almost everywhere I look. The Sun god is Horus, Apollo, Ra – all the names I listed and then some. Hitler recorded in his journal that he believed himself to have been possessed by Apollo. The swastika is an ancient Sun god symbol. The Nazi ‘salute’ is representative of Horus (Apollo) rising.
Knowing a fair amount about these things could help us to better comprehend Messiah, because as the counterfeit, the Sun god is everything Messiah is not. I believe it is wise to know a little bit about the enemy we are called to contend with in this world, being ever mindful (of course) of the scriptural admonition against learning the WAYS of this enemy. I have no interest in knowing the specifics of his ways. But general knowledge about his being and his habits are, I believe, an extraordinary asset.
Yes I am aware of the symbolism, Illuminati, etc. And I also think it is good to know of the enemy’s ways but there is no need to dig deep. There are so many of these articles about the Illuminati, Nephilim, NWO, and so forth on BIN, and they are presented in a way to almost try and scare believers…..oooh the Nephilim are coming….the Watchers are here….etc. I think what is lost in all of that is greater is He that is in us than he that is in the world. They are the ones that fear true believers. Even the Watchers will be afraid according to Enoch 1.5 I believe. When the army of God rides, even Satan’s hand will hang limp in fear. But anyway, that’s another subject for another time.
How many days and nights have been spent on this article????
You said:
“(emoticon terminated)”
“How many days and nights have been spent on this article????”
Complete, or partial?
Two, three, or four. I’m not exactly sure.
None of us can agree.
And yes…
I hate emoticons.
I like to slay them.
I tip my hat & nod with a grin.!
All y’all going over & over, examining, re examining this. Way to go, all beliefs are on the table face up.
For 33 years this month I’ve walked with this doctrine in this article. Great job again TS!
Was an egghead believer before that looking for the colored bunny droppings after church service.
Praise The Almighty for His Heart of Truth, it delivers!
Tues 13th Nisan Trial & Tremendous Torture
Wed 14th Nisan More Torture & Crucified
Thur 15th Nisan Heart of the earth ~ Passover meal
Fr 16th Nisan Heart of the earth ~ Buy spices etc.
Sabbath 17th Nisan Heart of the earth ~ Weekly Sabbath
Son day 18th Nisan First fruits wave offering
Thank you TS for this timely article.
For the last 3 days I’ve been looking at Mary Magdalene.
Our Lord delivered her from a demon stronghold,,, “the Prostitute of Babylon” aka spirit of Jezebel. She lived in Thanksgiving to him. She got what he taught, Father drew her to Him, opened her heart & gave her understanding. She was FAITHful. She lead the group of woman who followed our Lord. She was a leader. She retained her Strong personality after her heart was delivered. I recognize the Love of The Father in her!
Her heart became a heart after our Lords. What a woman, I am excited looking forward to talk & visit with her in eternity. Mary Magdalene was a “single” woman and very possible the best student that Jesus had. The “single life” is full of temptations. It seems she surpassed all the disciples in metabolizing Bible Doctrine. She loved the Word.
Mary reached spiritual maturity following our Lord. She was the FIRST human to proclaim ” HE IS RISEN” she went & fetched the apostles, who didn’t believe her. She was the first at his tomb, “very early in the morn” She was the FIRST human to see our Lord in his post resurrection appearance. she was the FIRST human to have a conversation with him. When he said her name she recognized him, the sound of his voice. Her heart FAITHfully cared for him. John 20
She Loved our Lord Jesus Christ. I am thankful for all who Love our Lord.
3 DAYS AND 3 NIGHTS
33 my favorite numbers!
Natsal,
You are amazing, your mind is opened and you are proving all things. Exactly what our Father wants in a son. His WAY is a very narrow path and few are “willing” to follow our Savior Jesus Christ on that path. The human mind is deceitful and very wicked, do not put your trust in yourself or others.
Take every single thing to our Father, now more the ever the Saints of God must live by Faith.
Thank you my friend and brother
Brother?
I doubt it Truthseeker.
How say you, Natsal?
What????
Well I sure am poor at figuring out who is who? Natsal if you are a women I hope I have not said anything I should not have and how did I not know?
Are there any others, am123 what are you?
To answer the query from TS, I am a male of the species
But I question your interpretation of the use of the word “Brother” by brother BEEF to mean male or female, could it not also mean a brother in the faith
I’m not sure of BEEF’s intent but I would guess it was the latter and not the former but we’ll have to leave it to him to sort that out.
That Natsal is of the BRETHREN, I have little doubt.
But I have sensed that Natsal is our sister, and not our brother.
Of course, if I am mistaken about this, I do apologize.
I should be more careful regarding my assumptions about you BEEF forgive me once again brother!
You are correct TS, I am a man. I stand when I pee. I am not religious. Biblical chivalry lives inside of me. Fathers Word is “God breathed”, it is his heart. Days such as these, He breathes inhales ~ exhales His heart upon ours!! That’s the writing upon our hearts. I Love opening & closing doors, respecting any woman that shows up on my path. I BELIEVE women are THE most beautiful creatures our Father has ever created! They were NOT created from the ground dust as man. They were built from a portion of man. The rib is far more, WAY more than just bone & stem cells. A part is actually from his heart of hearts. I’ve looked at this intently & it is incredible. Father is the author of some relationships.
At this age in my life I find compassion living in me I’ve never lived with before. Father has delivered me from an extremely hard heart where no compassioned existed. I have sensitivity for people & Love like never before. It was very odd in the beginning. Now it’s a part of me, like putting on my boots.
My bin name is Strongs #5337 it’s Father’s deliverance for His people. 33 again, the Lord delivers! I am living proof of the deliverance the intention of His heart! Much like Mary Magdalene, in no way perfect but faithful & loyal to Father in gratitude.
Thank you TS for your gracious words, they mean a lot right now.
Natsal
You can ask my wife I am oblivious to many things but I just did not get the feel you were of the female gender, that would have been a big shock.
I too am not religious, I was dragged into this WAY. I hated “church”, being called religious was to me at that time of life, the same as calling me a homosexual. There are many men in my family, everyone is a man’s man. We hunt, fish, dive 100 ft down and shoot fish, we all love weapons, and some love women a little too much. My dad was the leader in that.
Needless to say I have had a long and exciting life, I have passed 73, I have seen much. Actually too much. I have done it “my way” and finally got tired of the cuts and bruises. Our Father has finally got my full attention. As you have experienced, I for some unknown reason to me, need to write. You are the only one that has spent the time to prove it, maybe I am writing for you.
There is no way I am fit to be an elder, but writing seems to be what I should do. So until that door is shut I will.
When I get my daughter to set up a blind email, I will get back and we can have private conversations.
Thank you my friend
WOOOPS!!!
Natsal stands when he pees.
Mea culpa!! Lo siento!! Es tut mir leid!!
I eat my words. Consider ‘em ett.
Truthseeker, I’ve been thinking about your words. It would be great & fun to here more.
natsal33@yahoo.com
Looking forward to learning & laughing with you.
Quoting fiction to back up fiction is like quoting lies to justify stealing.
I know how much this must bother you Mr. Wizard.
I also know how much it bothers me whenever I see Buddhists arguing amongst themselves quoting Siddhartha, or Jews conversing about the Talmuds. It doesn’t bother me at all.
You can call Him a fiction to His face, on the day when you try to explain yourself to Him.
We’ll see if you’re still smug on that day.
Why are you always talking to yourself? Where are KoS and AoE?
THIRD DAY:
Regarding the “third day”, here is exhibit “A” from the Word showing that the “third day” is the day after tomorrow in modern vernacular:
EXHIBIT A:
Exodus 19:9-16 says this:
9 And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.
10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them to day and to morrow, and let them wash their clothes,
11 And be ready against the third day: for the third day the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.
12 And thou shalt set bounds unto the people round about, saying, Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it: whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death:
13 There shall not an hand touch it, but he shall surely be stoned, or shot through; whether it be beast or man, it shall not live: when the trumpet soundeth long, they shall come up to the mount.
14 And Moses went down from the mount unto the people, and sanctified the people; and they washed their clothes.
15 And he said unto the people, Be ready against the third day: come not at your wives.
16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
—Exodus 19:9-16
As you can see from exhibit A, the day after tomorrow is the “third day” in the Word or LORD’s use of that terminology. And now here is exhibit B, a second witness from the Word indicating that the “third day” means the day after tomorrow in modern terminology:
EXHIBIT B:
5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the Lord, ye shall offer it at your own will.
6 It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.
—Leviticus 19:5-6
So given that the “third day” is the day after tomorrow, then a crucifixion on a FRI would/did spawn a SUN resurrection.
am123
I am going to give you an A for effort. You are working hard to make the statement of Christ of none effect.
Do you realize how many facts in the accounts of the sacrifice you have to pitch out to force your will on God?
You are not fighting me, I only show you the scriptures and say read this. You are demanding the Word of God reflect things as you want them to be.
Why not go through this article and refute each point and show why the scriptures used do not say what they seem to say. What you have done so far would not convince anyone of anything. I think there are only 25 pages of scriptures.
Truthseeker,
A simple question for you:
Yes or no, do you or do you not agree that Exodus 19:9-16 defines the “third day” as the day after tomorrow?
BEEF,
My post above about the third day is the elephant in the room I was talking about. It throws a monkey wrench into this whole WED – SUN scenario or whatever scenario TS is espousing ergo, TS won’t touch those Scriptures with a 10 foot pole.
it is not an elephant its a tiny ant!
When words say today and tomorrow, then the third day is after tomorrow.
Please show me where 3 days and 3 nights are the same meaning? This and only this is the SIGN and ONLY SIGN Christ gave — exodus is not the sign.
When Christ says I will rise on the 3rd day, Thursday, Friday and Sabbath, the Sabbath is the third day. The third 24 hour day.
When Christ rises on the day portion of the Sabbath that is the third DAY portion.
I fully realize this is a waste of my time, what you have delivered so far is dribble, you have proved nothing and you never respond to my questions because they put you in a box you can not get out of.
You can follow the catholic way if you like, I will never!
“And they shall mock him, and shall scourge him, and shall spit upon him, and shall kill him: and the third day he shall rise again.”
— Mark 10:34
So after Jesus was crucified, He rose on the third day.
So the key question here is WHEN was Christ crucified? You claim on WED, which would make the third day FRI. So He couldn’t have been crucified on WED.
You said:
“exodus is not the sign”
No, Exodus is not the sign. The passage from Exodus and the one from Leviticus I quoted give us the meaning of the “third day”.
am321
I can not help you!
If you reject the words of Jesus Christ directly from His own mouth, there is not one word I can utter that will open your mind. Take your doctrine to God the Father and ask Him.
@ am 123
The only problem with that is that only two nights will have passed if we are dealing with the day after tomorrow calculation.
Actually LiesSeeker has it wrong too, for it’s not Wednesday to Saturday sunset because the Feast Days for Passover in 31 AD commenced with Tuesday sunset. This means it was a Tuesday Crucifixion with Yashua Anointed in the tomb until Friday sunset, hence Good Friday is a reference to The Resurrection, NOT the Crucifixion.
Which obviously makes more sense than Ishtar Sunday – The Pagan Babylonian Egg Fertility Festival.
@y2t,
No, you have FRI night (Garden of Gethsemane), SAT night, and SUN night. And then He arose on the third day.
Am 123
So you’re saying He rose on Monday morning? LOL
It doesn’t say ON the third day, it just says HE ROSE THE THIRD DAY which would be at the very end of that third day in order for it to count fully as one of the three days. This really isn’t complicated, so why do you make it so?
And you must forget the Good Friday crucifixion fabrication because it just didn’t occur on that day. He died before the commencement of a Passover Feast Day what John calls a High Day:
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, [the preparation day for The Passover Feast Day Sabbath] that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath Day, (for that Sabbath day was an High Day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. [Square Brackets mine]
Ordinary weekly Sabbaths were never called High Days only The Annual Feast Days – two of which occurred at The Passover plus the weekly Sabbath – three Sabbaths in all in Passover Week.
No, I’m saying He rose on Sunday morning. If you look at my timeline from my original post, SUN night in the Biblical or Jewish timeline begins at what we call sundown on SAT evening.
Regarding the third day, it need not be a full 3 days to fulfill the Scripture and in fact could not be so, for if 3 full days passed, then the resurrection would have occurred on the 4th day.
Besides, your scenario cannot be true. If the crucifixion occurred on a TUE as you indicated, the resurrection would have occurred on THUR (the third day).
Your comments are now becoming more irritating and nonsensical and your thinking continues to fly in the face of Yashua Anointed’s words of being in the tomb for a whole three days and three nights and you cannot fit that duration of time between late Friday afternoon and Sunday morning when the tomb was discovered empty so His Resurrection was not even in the daylight Sunday morning.
Let me write it out for you: sunset Friday to sunset Saturday is 24 hrs i.e. one night and one day, Sunset Saturday to some time in the early hours of Sunday morning is one night and no day and probably not even a full night because Yashua Anointed had already risen – time unknown according to your mainstream Christian silly ideas.
And stop ignoring the Passover background which I took time to reveal to you and which you completely ignored. The Passover background is crucial to the full knowledge and understanding of this event or have you forgotten that Yashua Anointed was The Passover Lamb?
Time is a human creation. Not the creation of an eternal. The idea of time and everywhere you see the use of time, is where a man is trying to take control……. There is no time after…..there is eternity. It? is happening at the same moment.
The days of the week were created so the gentiles will know when to serve.. History was rewritten to support the understandings of the masters.
No god created time. That is human and for humans.
truthuncovered
that is a profound statement! Is it yours?
So who did hang the planets and suns in their galaxies and set up their paths?
Also it has been shown by human intellectuals (?) that there are trillions of suns some 100 times as large as ours, they have been burning an unmeasurable amount of energy for scores if not hundreds of billions of years. Or is this just our vivid imagination?
Another thing I have been wanting to ask a deep thinker, as man evolved at what point was the ability to heal skin loss and other rips and cuts to the human body developed?
I just can’t come up with how this did work, you know the chicken and the egg thing??
The first human get cut and bleeds to death -the end!
truthseeker
truth can not be owned. If you try to own it as an original thought you will alter the perception and obscure the conclusion you are trying to convey….
(Did you know there is an energy that floats along till it is viewed? At that moment it becomes a particle or a wave. quantum mechanics is the place to research.)
This proves that our viewing changes the subjects form.
The second question you ask……… the beginning is where all started. The first feeling was followed by the first thought and then the first vibration happened. Do with that thought what you will. It speaks… If you are putting time on the subject then you are owning the knowledge of creation. just FYI friend……… It has been established that there are many dimensions we can not see. From one of then you can see all the others happening. All in happening in that dimension. Maybe you can find a friend there?….maybe our heads will pop off and float down the river..
It was a human that told you not to research the truth. Creation has your company now so it would not care the path you take to get closer….
I do not understand your chicken cut situation.. I will not try…………………..
To all
it is not the third day from the crucifixion , it is the third day OF being in the grave.
The ONLY SIGN is 3 days in the grave. Why is that concept so hard to grasps?????
I can not understand why so many very important points are cast aside.
Actually I can as this is why there are 4000 flavors of so called Christianity.
My mind keeps returning to the 5 blind men explaining what an elephant looks like.
to all again
Let us make this simple: Forgetting the 3 nights and focusing only on the 3 days, it has been shown Christ stated there are 12 hours in the day Thus please show 3 – 12 hour day in the grave which is the sign. If you ignore the ONLY SIGN given your comments are meaningless.
It is not the third day for His death that is not what Christ is counting from, it is the third day of being in the grave which you are ignoring I believe on purpose as it does not work with Sunday.
If you can not account for all that took place and show three 12 hour day buried in the tomb
then you are off the pages of the Bible and the Words of Jesus Christ.
And when I say account for all,, it must take into account the First High Holy Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and the Passover supper and the preparation day FOR the Passover supper.
He rose ON the third day, not AFTER the third day.
Somewhere in these many comments above, BEEF stated, and I agree with this, “Thus, there must have been at least PART of three days and all of three nights, or PART of three nights and all of three days, in order for the Scripture to have been fulfilled.”
So in this particular case, since Jesus rose ON the third day, we have a situation of all of 3 full nights and a partial of the 3 days.
You cannot have a FULL 3 days and have the resurrection still occur ON the third day—that’s an impossibility. If you have a problem with this, you have a problem with the following from Esther as well:
Esther said to the Jews in chapter 4 verse 16, fast for her for 3 days and 3 nights and then she will go see the king:
“Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish.”
—Esther 4:16
And then ON THE THIRD DAY, Esther went before the king:
“Now it came to pass on the third day, that Esther put on her royal apparel, and stood in the inner court of the king’s house”
—Esther 5:1
So how did they fast for Esther 3 full days and how did she fast for 3 full days if she went before the king on the 3rd day?
We have this same predicament with Jesus rising on the third day.
The only predicament is residing in your mind.
As I have stated above – HE ROSE THE THIRD DAY, not ON the third day. Not that it makes any difference to me, but it should to you as you have a penchant for irrelevant details.
Which day did He rise on, DAY 3 or DAY 4?
You work it out or can’t you count to three? What is it with you? You’re the one introducing the irrelevant number four into the equation, not me.
No, you’re the one that brought 4 into the conversation by insisting on full 3 days for the prophecy.
I knew it, you can’t count to three.
How do you manage typing?
Luke 18:33
And they shall scourge Him and put Him to death: And THE THIRD DAY He shall rise again.
Or again, second witness:
Matthew 17:23
And they shall KILL HIM, and THE THIRD DAY He shall be raised again.
Again, third witness:
Matthew 20:19
And shall deliver Him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify, and THE THIRD DAY He shall rise again.
Fourth witness:
Mark 10:34
And they shall mock Him, and shall scourge Him, and shall spit upon Him, and shall kill Him: And THE THIRD DAY He shall rise again.
Truthseeker,
ALL examples in Scripture teach us that TODAY is the first day. According to all applicable passages in Scripture, the pattern is consistently the same. The ‘first day’ is only and always TODAY. Thus, ‘today, tomorrow, and the third day.’ If you can find an example from the Scriptures which demonstrates any other pattern than that, I would love to see it.
There is nothing in ANY of the verses above which stipulates an ENTIRE 72 hour period, and there is certainly nothing that would require it. Furthermore, the singular verse you point to, which you indicate should over-rule the above four verses, does not include anything within it which would absolutely require an ENTIRE three days and three nights. Adding the word or the concept ‘entire’ to the verse is just that — it is adding to the verse. As written, there is nothing in the singular verse which demands the understanding of entirety. I can find nothing in Scripture which tells us we have to view this event the way you are insisting it should be viewed. And the four verses quoted above make it impossible to view the event the way you demand that it must be viewed, considering the defining principle of Scripture and the examples of the idiom found throughout the Scriptures. It is my considered opinion that the totality of the evidence in this case draws away from the conclusion you have reached.
Trust Ecoli Beef to get in with his intellectual blathering nonsense and the reading in of said nonsense into The Holy Scriptures. Have you considered becoming a Papist Beef?
“There is nothing in ANY of the verses above which stipulates an ENTIRE 72 hour period.”
But there is here in this verse which sets the precedent:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
This means that for those of The Truth, they will immediately know that any mention of the three days in the tomb event elsewhere will automatically imply three days and three nights, because in their world night follows day or vice versa. DOH!!
This, though, does not occur in Ecoli Beef’s idiom BS argumentative world where three days are counted with only two nights or is it one night Beef?
So as to create bloody minded dissembling contradictions.
beef
If we just eliminate the “offensive term” 3 nights and use the term 3 days, which Jesus Christ STATES is the only sign He will give and which all disregard, then there are 3 day light portions that He will be in the grave. Can I get an Amen to that at least?
How long in the grave? can only be adjusted on the first day and the third day – the 2nd day must be 12 hours as it is between.
I would guess most of us will agree Christ was placed in the grave at sundown then the next day light portion has to be 12 hours and we just showed the 2nd days must be 12 hours, it then leaves the third day as the only day that can be adjusted.
If that day is the Sabbath as I affirm, there is no mention of any thing occurring until before sunrise the first day of the week which also points “kind of” to the third day being the Sabbath. But even this will be disputed I am sure.
So at this point, it is left to everyone to select a time Christ was resurrected on the Sabbath.
I contend it was at the last split second of the third 12 hours of day which was the Sabbath as the next day light was the first day of the week -sunday
.
That fulfills the “rise on the third day” requirement and also fulfills the 3 days in the grave
AND my statement Christ rose on the Sabbath.
am123 keeps pointing to “tomorrow”, that word is not used, yes the third day is,, I just used the third day above, can someone please show me the verse that says “on the third day from today” in connection to Christ resurrection. The sign is 3 days in the grave. not the third day from today.
To everyone; please use my exact words and show the mistakes. Making me explain this over and over has caused me to prove the fact that Jesus Christ was in the grave for 3 days beyond any doubt and He was resurrected on the Sabbath without doubt.
Thursday- one portion of day light
Friday- one portion of day light
Sabbath- one portion of day light – this is the third day
To top this off- the women came before sunrise on the first day of the week – sunday.
And Christ WAS already risen!
Guys this can not be any clearer, Sunday points back to the Sabbath and the Sabbath is the third day.
“can someone please show me the verse that says “on the third day from today” in connection to Christ resurrection. The sign is 3 days in the grave. not the third day from today.”
It was the third day from when He was killed:
“And they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be raised again.”
— Matthew 17:23
“And shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.”
— Matthew 20:19
“For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day.”
— Mark 9:31
“And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day”
—Luke 24:46
Truthseeker wrote:
“…and which all disregard…”
I haven’t disregarded anything spoken by Messiah. One of us (two if you count Limey the Grouch) is insisting that Messiah’s words must be understood in a way which is not consistent with the totality of the Scriptures.
“…then there are 3 day light portions that He will be in the grave. Can I get an Amen to that at least?”
Amen. There are three ‘daylight portions’ that He was in the grave. Part of the 14th. All of the 15th. All of the 16th. At that point, the Scriptures are fulfilled. Unless, that is, you can show me WHY you insist that the days absolutely positively had to be complete, 12 hour days.
“How long in the grave? can only be adjusted on the first day and the third day – the 2nd day must be 12 hours as it is between.”
The first day is finished. The Scriptures make it clear that Messiah was brought down from the tree prior to the evening. This means that He could easily have been interred while it was yet day, just before evening. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, THE FIRST DAY.
“I would guess most of us will agree Christ was placed in the grave AT sundown…” (emphasis added)
Bad guess. I maintain it was NEAR Sundown, but PRIOR to Sundown. The following two days, Messiah was in the tomb for complete 12 hour days – Sunup to Sundown.
“If that day is the Sabbath as I affirm, there is no mention of any thing occurring until before sunrise the first day of the week which also points “kind of” to the third day being the Sabbath. But even this will be disputed I am sure.”
I have maintained from the beginning, and I still do now, that the THIRD DAY was the Seventh Day Sabbath. 14th = Passover. 15th = 1ULB. 16th = Seventh Day Sabbath. I also maintain a day-begins-when-the-day-begins paradigm, with the night following the day. So the NIGHT of the 16th is when I maintain Messiah rose. BEHOLD!!! As a thief in the NIGHT. What I say to you all… WATCH!!! The hour is for the day. The watch is for the night. Messiah is Master of the Sabbath. He is Master of the Seventh Day and He comes as a thief in the night.
“…can someone please show me the verse that says “on the third day from today” in connection to Christ resurrection.”
This is implied many times elsewhere in Scripture. There is a principle which shows us the definition of Scriptural terms. The Scriptures define the Scriptures. I will cling to this principle like a man in the deep after a shipwreck clings to a piece of wooden flotsam. This principle is valid. It is how the Scriptures are and should be interpreted – by the other verses of Scripture. We disregard this principle at our peril.
“The sign is 3 days in the grave. not the third day from today.”
I’m afraid you are just going to have to accept the fact that your brothers do not view this as an ‘either-or.’ Speaking for myself, I maintain that the two are the same. They are NOT mutually exclusive. You should at least be willing to admit to the possibility, given the fact that nothing is written which precludes the interpretation your brothers are describing. Rather, the totality of the evidence seems to me to leave no other sound interpretation than the one I adamantly espouse.
“To everyone; please use my exact words and show the mistakes. Making me explain this over and over has caused me to prove the fact that Jesus Christ was in the grave for 3 days beyond any doubt and He was resurrected on the Sabbath without doubt.”
So stop right there. DO NOT ADD another word to that statement. And we will be in agreement. The very second you add the words ENTIRE or COMPLETE to three days and three nights, then I will (and have) point to your mistake. It is a mistake to add to the Scriptures. Strike the words and the thoughts ‘entire’ and ‘complete’ from this dilemma. They don’t belong here. They are the cause of ALL disagreement here. And the Scriptures DO NOT include the words, or their equals, or the like.
I am going with what I find written, and nothing more. If this were a court of law, there is no reason at all that the interpretation I have described would be found unacceptable. There is nothing in the evidence which precludes its legitimacy.
And please remember – I reject ANY connection between Messiah’s Resurrection and “Sunday” and I maintain, along with you, that Messiah was Resurrected on the Sabbath.
BEEF said:
“I reject ANY connection between Messiah’s Resurrection and “Sunday” and I maintain, along with you, that Messiah was Resurrected on the Sabbath.”
Tell me brother BEEF, if someone believes in a SAT resurrection, then they must also believe in a THUR crucifixion must they not because of the “third day” pattern propagated in the Word which, in modern lingo, is basically the “third day” from today is the day after tomorrow, is that not correct?
Likewise, if someone believes in a SUN resurrection, they must believe in a FRI crucifixion not because of religion but because of what is in the Word.
For any believers reading this who want the witness of the Word on the “third day” being the day after tomorrow in modern parlance, have a look for yourself:
And here’s the cherry on top from Messiah Himself:
“Tell me brother BEEF, if someone believes in a SAT resurrection, then they must also believe in a THUR crucifixion must they not because of the “third day” pattern propagated in the Word which, in modern lingo, is basically the “third day” from today is the day after tomorrow, is that not correct?”
We really should learn to knock off this “Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday” crap when talking about the Scriptures. There is a reason our Father has told us not to mingle seed, and trying to apply ANY day from the Roman Gregorian Week to ANY aspect of the Biblical Narrative is truly an exercise in pointlessness. No. Messiah was not Resurrected on a Sunday. And to ask the question, which day was it then? misses the point, unless we follow the terminology we are given by the Book.
Messiah was resurrected on the Seventh Day. This is my understanding. Beyond that, nothing else should be said. Unless, that is, a brother would like to argue that Messiah was raised on some OTHER day of the Ancient Israelite Week; i.e. the First Day, the Eight Day, etc. We should learn to divorce ourselves from this paganism garbage. All of it.
AND JUST FOR THE RECORD: I do not find these conversations amongst brothers to be fruitless or a waste of time. I believe these conversations serve a valuable purpose, even when none of us agree, or can persuade the others to his particular way of thinking. Truthseeker becomes exasperated quickly when he can’t bring others to see eye-to-eye with his points. I think it is a mistake to do so. This is study, and it is practice. No matter our beliefs, we are becoming strengthened in our insight into these matters when we ‘cross swords’ with each other on the field of debate. I believe that good does come from these debates — no matter the outcome. Rifling the Scriptures for verses to “prove” our points will only increase our understanding and familiarity with the Bible, even if we don’t believe tomorrow what we believe today — which we won’t. (Except Crabby the Grouch, Mr. Yes2Truth. He among us has all of the answers already because he is special.)
Hang in there Truthseeker, and allow your brothers a little latitude for personal understanding. I call these matters as I see them, as I know you do. I didn’t get where I am by accident. None of us did.
That would be CHUMLEE
AKA
BEEF SUPREME
CHUMLEE aka Beef
You are correct, the circumcision without hands has not been completed in me. The full measure of my carnal human nature has not been cut away. Some times my patience’s runs out before my mouth stops working. If it were not for the Holy Spirit producing a little fruit in me none of you would want to be any where near me.
I will say, even though my patience’s is not what it should and will become, being forced to defend a doctrine can be beneficial. I first begin writing out my studies because it demanded a doctrine or thought be expressed in a clear and understandable format.
Going through defending the Sabbath Resurrection and the sundown burial between the 14/15th made me view it from many angles and now I see it clear as day light. Some don’t yet agree but that is not my problem.
I think I said this once before but a person can read a scripture 500 times and then on the 501 the paradigm is removed and and the scripture is understood in truth.
Paradigm’s are one method Satan uses to blind mankind to God’s Truth. Paradigms are “computer virus” of the mind.
I guess I shall continue to vex beef and am123. LOL
“I guess I shall continue to vex beef and am123.”
Is good practice.
This way — MAYBE we’ll be in shape for what’s coming.
Not through any merit of our own, but by time spent marinating in the Word and by meeting the challenges of alternate arguments.
@ Ecoli Beef,
You definitely are here by accident. If I were a gambler I would wager your mother dropped you on your head when you were very young and never told you about it.
“There is a reason our Father has told us not to mingle seed, and trying to apply ANY day from the Roman Gregorian Week to ANY aspect of the Biblical Narrative is truly an exercise in pointlessness. No. Messiah was not Resurrected on a Sunday. And to ask the question, which day was it then? misses the point, unless we follow the terminology we are given by the Book.”
OK OK Chumley…er…BEEF…I think I see where you’re coming from then. Should TS have used the
First Day instead of Sunday in the title then? Most people wouldn’t know what he would be saying then. Granted, believers SHOULD know, but DO they know? I would venture a guess that most don’t.
Anyway, let me try this on for size, you also said:
“Messiah was resurrected on the Seventh Day. This is my understanding.”
Well, let me test that understanding in light of the Scriptures.
When the women from Galilee came to look for Jesus, they came on the first day of the week:
“Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.”
—Luke 24:1
Jesus had already told them that He would be crucified and would rise on the third day:
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
—Luke 24:6-7
So Jesus told them He would be crucified and rise on the third day. So why did the women from Galilee go looking for Jesus on the first day? Because that was the third day after the crucifixion:
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
—Luke 24:19-21
So they said TODAY (the first day) is the third day since the crucifixion, which was on the sixth day.
“So they said TODAY (the first day) is the third day since the crucifixion, which was on the sixth day.”
Not so fast. You will recall that I maintain that a day begins AFTER MORNING, which is when ANY day can truly said to begin. I believe Genesis makes this clear:
Work is done, work concludes. Then… there came to be evening, there came to be morning …
THE FIRST DAY.
Morning CONCLUDES THE CYCLE. Morning and evening are not a part of DAY and NIGHT. Morning and evening are the portions for MIXING. The day and the night are kept separate (set-apart – CHODESH – holy) by the evening (which comes first) and then the morning. The cycle BEGINS with the BEGINNING OF THE DAY.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
SO…
We see that the ‘Marys’ were arriving at the tomb very early, as the First Day of the ‘week’ drew on.
14th = death and burial in the day, prior to sunset/evening.
And the 16th? Messiah RESTED on the Sabbath Day, and ROSE in the night, which followed the day.
There is NO CONFLICT between this understanding and ANYTHING I have ever read in Scripture.
Your brother, Chumlee Supreme.
(insert emoticon here “ptthhhhhht”)
PS
The 14th day of the first month (Passover) = the fifth day of the week
The 15th (1ULB) = the sixth day of the week
The 16th (Sabbath) = the seventh
I do not follow what you’re saying. What day is Luke talking about here?:
“Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.”
—Luke 24:1
MIA TON SABBATON
That’s what is translated as ‘first day of the week’ in this case, elsewhere in the Gospels, and once in the Book of Acts.
THIS IS A SCAM (to put it bluntly). This verse in Greek CANNOT rightly be translated as ‘first day of the week.’ This phrase ‘mia ton sabbaton’ is erroneously translated on purpose, in an attempt to garner evidence for Sunday worship.
MIA TON SABBATON means ‘One to the Sabbaths.’ It does not, and cannot, mean first day of the week. ‘First’ (proto) isn’t there in the Greek. ‘Week’ isn’t there either. No one EVER called a week a Sabbath in either the Old or the New Testaments. The argument that by ‘Sabbath’ is meant the set of seven days is a fallacy, one around which an entire doctrine has been built, and the rules of language distorted.
SO…
When the DAY BEGAN, after the ‘Marys’ arrived at the tomb, then it BECAME both the 17th day of the month and the First Day of the ‘week.’
Look into the nonsense about ‘mia ton sabbaton.’ It will open up doors you might not even be aware of yet.
LUKE is talking about the beginning of the seven Sabbath count, which begins on the day after the Sabbath after Passover (see Leviticus 23) and continues for seven Sabbaths in order to lead to Shavuot/Pentecost. This is the Omer Count. Mia ton Sabbaton refers to this seven Sabbath count — it does not mean… well… I’m repeating myself.
MIA WHAT
MAMA MIA BEEF!
Well Chumley Supreme…er…how about the BEEF-STIR
Well any, I guess brother this is where we will have to agree to part and disagree on this matter, for I reserve the right go with the first verse of chapter 24 of LUKE the way it reads now in the KJV:
“Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.”
And not only that, but I go with all of the verses chapter 24 as written in Luke, including the following verses, which speak of the glorious THIRD DAY
Some might ask THIRD DAY from what
The THIRD DAY from the death and crucifixion of the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS the LIGHT
OF THE WORLD
6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
19 And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
So you can see BEEF, verse 1 of Luke 24 reads as you readily admit it does it says the FIRST DAY of the week and it is the glorious THIRD DAY
So until further notice I rest my case. Thank you BEEF for the banter and for being sharpening iron to me and vice versa—you know the verse I’m talking about in Proverbs!
Later BEEF!
Very well.
But at least look up MIA TON SABBATON.
Explore it a little bit. And see for yourself whether there is even the SLIGHTEST chance that phrase was intended to read as it does in the King James Version, or ever should have been translated so.
Happy hunting.
And I reiterate; this portion of the study is fruitful for many reasons. It would be a mistake to neglect it.
Just Google MIA TON SABBATON and see what happens.
I just Googled it myself, because it’s been a while.
I used all lowercase letters. Man O man.
Just do it.
“Just do it.”
Getting kind of pushy aren’t we BEEF
OK OK….I googled it mister pushy man
Guess what
I still don’t get it
But I’ll keep it in mind or better yet, just remind me of it when the first day of the week comes up again.
Or better still, can you just distill it into its purest, most concise, form and I’ll listen to what you have to say about it
So for now, I’m cool
with what I got
Generally speaking, when I look into things like this, it takes me more than 23 minutes — which, according to the time-stamps on our postings, is as much as you could have spent, even if you started reading the minute after I posted.
That’s no way to marinate brother.
It takes me longer than that to eat a sandwich.
And am I usually so ‘pushy’? Maybe there’s a reason for it in this case. This is kind of important. BUT… do with it as you will.
Beef Soufflé has retired.
(..until the next dust storm…)
“Beef Soufflé has retired.”
Shouldn’t that be Beef Soufflé Supreme has retired…
@ AM123
Luke 24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
This verse has been corrupted the reference to THREE is to the THREE THINGS that had recently occurred NOT to the number of days that had elapsed. This is recorded in the NIV Greek Interlinear Bible.
The three things are: His Arrest and Trial: His Crucifixion: His Resurrection.
There is NO WAY that these fellas would have been counting days whilst their minds were focused on these fearful and phenomenal events.
@y2t,
You are joking, right
If not, that’s pretty lame. What you said doesn’t even make sense. The 3 things you mention occurred over 3 days, so how can the verse mean today is the day all those 3 things were done?
Luke 24:21 clearly depicts it was 3 days since the crucifixion, which is why they went looking for Jesus, for He said He would rise on third day.
@ am123
No, I am NOT joking.
You need to put yourself in the shoes of those two disciples as they were walking along relating the story of what had recently occurred outside the walls of Jerusalem to this man whom they considered a complete stranger until He made Himself known to them.
They would not have been counting days when such traumatic events had occurred. Their focus would have been on the THINGS, NOT on how many days had elapsed. Only a religious post-event gnat straining armchair commentator would focus on the number of days.
From Luke 24:
Luk_24:10 It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these THINGS unto the apostles.
Luk_24:14 And they talked together of all these THINGS which had happened.
Luk_24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the THINGS which are come to pass there in these days?
Luk_24:19 And he said unto them, What THINGS? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
Luk_24:21 But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these THINGS were done.
Luk_24:26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these THINGS, and to enter into his glory?
Luk_24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the THINGS concerning himself.
Luk_24:35 And they told what THINGS were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
Luk_24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all THINGS must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
Luk_24:48 And ye are witnesses of these THINGS.
(All emphasis mine) 10 references to THINGS in Luke 24 and only one reference to the day.
From The Greek transliteral:
which-how besides (both) beside-give (give up) Him the chief sacred-ones and the chief of-us into judgment of death and they impale Him
We yet expected that He is the One-being-about to-be-loosening the Israel, but surely together to-all these three (things), this day it is leading on today from which these things occurred.
but and (also) women any out of us out-stand (amaze) us becoming early on the memorial vault and no finding the body of-Him they-came saying and (also) view (apparition) of-messengers (angels) to-have-seen who are-saying Him to-be-living.
Now all you have to do is get it through your head that three MAJOR THINGS had occurred and the number of days passed was an irrelevance in this conversation between The Lord and His two disciples:
1 His arrest and false trial.
2 His Crucifixion
3 His Resurrection
Bravo B. supreme!
What if I informed everyone (yesterday) that “I’m going to town for 3 days” and then return tomorrow…won’t I indeed have spent Thursday, Friday & Saturday IN town, even with travel on thurs and sat I was THERE for 3 distinct days!
If hypothetically a crime was committed and I were questioned by police ‘Were you in Portland on Saturday?’…could I even conceivably answer in protest “NO officer I wasn’t there that day [while thinking 'not ALL of Saturday because I left town before the stroke of midnight!']“
Anyone who says “Bravo Beef Supreme” has a major problem.
BOTTOM LINE:
The timeline of this article cannot be true. If the crucifixion took place on Wednesday as this article states, the resurrection would have occurred on Friday because the Bible says:
“From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.”
— Matthew 16:21
And if the crucifixion was on Wednesday, the third day relative to Wednesday would be Friday. This is so because the “third day” means the day after tomorrow, which you can find in Exodus 19:9-16, Leviticus 19:5-6, and Luke 13:32.
Ergo, a WED crucifixion would result in a FRI resurrection, so the timeline in this article is incorrect.
am123
The only thing I got straight A’s on in high school and college was math, math is logic. God is LOGIC.
am, your logic leave much to be desired
I just sent a very compelling time line, please dissect it at your leisure and find the errors in logic
Tell me then where my logic is in error in my post.
am123
I knew your logic was a problem but so is your word skill.
You quoted back to me what I have proven to be true but it confirms the Bible not your catholic doctrine, Yes Christ rose on the third day, the Sabbath Day.
So you can’t point out the error in my logic?
To get a resurrection on SAT, Jesus would have to have been crucified on THUR. But you maintain He was crucified on WED. So your timeline is wrong.
That’s your problem – YOUR logic.
We don’t know how many followers Jesus had. He had an organization, and he drew crowds.
Of course the Sabbath began at sundown, that’s why Pilate permitted the crucifixions to be cut short, and the bodies taken down. That is Jewish time keeping, then and now.
And yes, three days in the tomb was the prophecy. And it was the reality.
@ Lifels
Yes quite, there was definitely more than one group of women visiting the tomb.
Also and most important:
Do NOT underestimate the power-hold Rome still has over these so called Christians with their know-nothing hair splitting over the term “ON the third day” when it doesn’t even exist and attempting at the same time to maintain their Papist Good Friday to Sunday blasphemies.
Sounds great TS ! Thank you !
Very Funny BS ! No malice intended
Just a thought on the women at the tomb. I can ONLY imagine what was going on in their hearts, minds & feelings. Their Lord whom they Loved & followed had just been seized, taken from them, accused, trialed, horrendously tortured, , shamed, crucified, stabbed, dead, placed in a tomb. They were under the tremendous oppression of suffering, grieving the loss of their Love, he was no more, gone. Regardless of how many believed he would rise from the dead, at this time, the high adrenalin mixed with maxed out emotion, must of manifested itself in everything they did. Sleep, I bet they functioned on very little if any. As was their custom during this time of the year, imagine the work before them. Their pulse, heartbeat, breathing & thinking must of been racing faster than it ever had in their lives. In their hurrying every other step may never of touched the ground. Granted women are beautiful “MASTERS” of multitasking, it must of took all they had within them to keep themselves together with poise & soul composure at the tomb, especially when Mary M. (the first ist with the most ist) found not the body !
Speaking of women…
I know a woman.
Like no other. Stronger than any other because of the WAY she determines to overcome every exigencie that shows up on her stage of life. Whatever it takes she has the power of WILL to find a way when there is no way. She believes even when she can not see what’s up ahead. Her faith STANDS in the darkness of night for mornin Light. A woman with mental, soul & heart strength found only in our Lord. A warrior with the determination of our Lord to complete every battle victorious.
She seeks counsel from the Almighty & knows the lips of knowledge are a precious jewel.
This woman is trustworthy, diligent, independent, and generous. She has her own business, her own income, her own property. She is on the path of Ruth. Ruth is the only woman in the Bible specifically referred to as a Virtuous Woman.
At the time Boaz called Ruth a Virtuous Woman, she was unmarried, without children, unsuccessful, living in poverty, a stranger in a strange land. On the outside, Ruth looked nothing like the woman described in Proverbs 31; “But” the character that made the Virtuous Woman WHO SHE WAS lived inside Ruth, and could be clearly discerned by those who looked “carefully” at her. She was not a native Israelite, but rather a Moabite. Yet she had forsaken the gods of her youth, and followed “wholeheartedly” after the God of Hers was not a casual conversion, or a conversion of convenience.
She had a family in Moab that she could have gone home to, who could have seen to it that she was cared for and protected for the rest of her life, or she could have remarried among her own people; but she didn’t do that. Like Moses, she chose “rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season.” (Hebrews 11:25.)
Boaz, recognized her for the treasure she was. The chief characteristic of the Virtuous Woman is her fear of the Lord. Hardly need to mention that Wisdom begins with the fear of the Lord. We see this when we look at Ruth.
I know this woman.
I know a woman.
“Naomi”, It should read “Yet she had forsaken the gods of her youth, and followed “wholeheartedly” after the God of Naomi, Who is the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob.
Was in my head but omitted in my typing.
Still, she believes even when she can not see !I know a woman on the path of Ruth.Ruth. The simple Love story is key to understanding the Plan of God, love, and marriage as revealed in the scripture. So simple, yet so powerful when understood as related from the perspective of Ruth. The scriptural explanation of romance bears no resemblance to the worldly viewpoint of courtship and marriage. The story of Ruth is one of the most powerful Love stories ever told. The book of Ruth is important because it establishes the origin of the Davidic Dynasty. David was the greatest king of Israel. The Davidic Covenant establishes his throne forever and will be fulfilled in the Millennium with Christ ruling from the throne. The total time Naomi was in Moab was about ten years (Ruth 1:4). Ruth’s approximate age can be surmised from this. The earliest she would have been married would have been age 14 (which would not be unusual for the Moabites); otherwise, due to promiscuity, the girl would often not have been a virgin at the time of marriage. If the family were in Moab 5 years before Machlon married Ruth, then Ruth would have been 19 at the time. It is probably reasonable to assume that she was 19 to 24 at the time of the return to Bethlehem when she was captured in the eyes of Boaz. The WAY Ruth caught the eye of Boaz is remarkable. Boaz looked beyond the exterior of the flesh to the motive of the heart, to the character that lived inside Ruth that makes the Virtuous Woman WHO SHE IS. He saw this in her at a young age before the qualities, the values of Prov 31 were even manifested in her life. They moved his soul to want to break bread with her at his table & talk with her, hear her words, her thinking, her interests at which time during the exchange he was further moved to take action to protect her in her work position. He gave her favor from his heart.I too, similar to Boaz, recognized this same character of heart in a woman I know, in her youth BEFORE the qualities, the values of Prov 31 flourished into the good fruit that stands today in her life. Marriage is the basis for blessing or cursing the culture. The story of Ruth is the vindication of the concept of Marriage Culture. Through it can be seen how the Lord overcomes every obstacle to fulfill his promises to mankind and how the Plan of God provides for marriage. The ultimate testimony to the importance of Marriage Culture was the birth of Christ through a predefined lineage and the Right Men and Right Women in His genealogy. Ruth and Boaz were two of the greatest examples of the faithfulness of God in the genealogy of Christ and in all of human history
.I know a woman on the path of Ruth !I know a woman
Natsal
That is remarkable insight, I think you captured the event in a true sense.
Only us old guys would look in side a women today, the young only look at the exterior.
Thank you very much TS! I hear yah.
Ruth, what a woman. She responded positively to Boaz as he verbalized what he saw inside her. What she saw inside of him looking back at her she wanted. She believed she could handle it. He was probably in his mid 50′s Ruth mid 20′s. Time like age aren’t necessarily a big deal to Father it’s the thoughts & intent of the heart, the interior is where Father looks & sees. I believe this is how Ruth & Boaz looked at each other. What’s on the interior determines the flow pattern response of the exterior. The way God designed the central nervous system to work together harmoniously with the body. Ay, don’t tell the young the secret, if they listen to Father, He will teach em in such a way they will never forget it. He knows the intricacies of each person & will reveal them to the other to create the humm, the God ly rhythm of Eden for His kids. The real age is between the ears, the inner confessions, the interior.
I, myself am very blessed, in my early 20′s Father gave me the eyes to see the interior of His daughter, the woman I speak of above. He imprinted, tatooed what i saw upon my soul forevermore. It’s uneraceable by human power.
I know a woman on the path of Ruth
I know a woman