The Abode of the Dead
The Abode of the Dead
The scripture passage about Lazarus and the rich man bothered me for several years. Not that I couldn’t understand it, but exactly which type of passage was it supposed to be. I have read that it is a parable used by Jesus as a means to teach against a covetous character, selfishness, and a love for mammon. I have also read that it is merely a story that was well known in first century Jewish days and Jesus was just reiterating a format of the story since it would be familiar to His listeners.
In his commentary, Robert Utley claims it is a parable:
“This is the fifth in a series of parables in Luke 15, 16. It is a highly unusual parable because 1. it has no introduction 2. it has no explicit application 3. a person is specifically named”.
The reason it is “highly unusual” is because it is not a parable.
In my opinion and based on my theological beliefs, Jesus does not lie or tell tales or half-truths that are not true, even if it might serve a purpose. This scripture passage with theological implications could not be a tall tale. My study of the parables of Jesus indicate they all are based on some spiritual aspect of the Kingdom of Heaven (or Kingdom of God). Therefore the story of Lazarus, with the name of a person, and the rich man is a story containing characteristics which are true. For example, the soul and spirit of a person at death do not go directly to heaven or the lake of fire but go to the abyss which is divided into two sections: a place called “paradise” for the righteous; and a place called hades or hell for the unrighteous, exactly the locations of Lazarus and the rich man.
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:22-23 KJV)
The Greek word translated as “torments” literally means, according to Thayer’s Greek Dictionary: A touchstone, a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold, silver and other metals, hence any test or criterion by which the qualities of a thing are tried. This would mean the rich man was being tested or tried. Thayer continues to state that metaphorically it means: an instrument of torture by which one is forced to divulge the truth, or an examination, that is a trial by torture. Whether or not the unrighteous are being tortured in hell or hades is open to debate. The Seventh Day Adventists (and there could be other groups) do not believe in an actual hell of fire or torture because they consider it unfair and ungodly for God to allow one person to be tortured for thousands of years and another for only a few days. Of course, it could be possible that death is no longer aware of the concept of passing time and one day or a thousand years is the same. Just a thought, not a doctrine.
The Crucified Thief
The book of Luke is the only gospel detailing the words of the crucified thief beside Jesus. He asked to be remembered when Jesus comes into His kingdom and he is given the answer, “Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise”.
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. (Luke 23:42-43 KJV)
This has always been a go-to verse for those claiming a righteous person goes to heaven at death. However, Jesus does not say “heaven” but rather “paradise”. At death, Jesus also went to paradise or the abyss and not to heaven. Therefore this is a logical and truthful statement, as it should be since Jesus does not say untruthful things.
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (1 Peter 3:19 KJV)
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (Acts 2:31 KJV)
By the way, the word “hell” in Acts 2:31 is actually the Greek word “Hades”. We don’t actually know the proper background and environment of Hades but if Jesus went there, which it says He does, then I seriously doubt if He was tortured, assuming it is the same location as the scene of the rich man.
Paradise in the Greek Dictionary
Below is an edited version of “Paradise” in the Wordstudy Dictionary. The edits consist of removed sentences that detail the word “paradise” in other cultures and do not change the definition of the word. The sections in bold type refer to this article.
Paradise parádeisos; masc. noun. This is an oriental word which the Greeks borrowed from the Persians, among whom it meant a garden, park, or enclosure full of all the vegetable products of the earth. The Septuagint uses it to refer to the Garden of Eden.
In later Jewish usage and in the NT, parádeisos is used for the abode of the blessed after death. Paradise, before Christ’s resurrection, has been thought to be the region of the blessed in Hades although it was not specifically called by that name (Luk_16:23). Jesus said He would take the repentant thief with Him to paradise (Luk_23:43).
Hades (G86) in the NT was the world or abode of the dead in general. According to the notions of the Jews, Hades was a vast subterranean area where the souls or the spirits of the dead existed in separate states until the resurrection of their bodies. The region of the blessed during this interval, or the inferior paradise, was thought to be in the upper part of this receptacle. Beneath this was the abyss, Gehenna (G1067) or Tartarus (G5020), in which the souls of the wicked were subjected to punishment.
Where is Paradise?
What is the location of the Abyss or Hades or Paradise? The short answer – I don’t really know. The words “hell, sheol, and hades originally meant death or the grave. Their use as translations for ancient texts including mythological writings may not accurately describe the original intention.
From a Biblical standpoint (based on English translations) heaven is considered to be in an upward direction and hell is downward.
And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell. (Luke 10:15 KJV)
Paradise can also be considered upward.
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Corinthians 12:4 KJV)
The abyss or bottomless pit of the Revelation is pictured as downward since the beast must ascend upward to leave it. Of course a pit is downward.
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit (abyss)….. (Revelation 17:8 KJV)
The Revelation presents a scene featuring souls under the altar. They are allowed to briefly speak as did Samuel when he was summoned by the witch of Endor for Saul.
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (Revelation 6:9 KJV)
Is the location of the abyss, hell, hades, and paradise inside the earth? It could be but I doubt it. However, we may not know for certain until it is revealed. Some scientists now claim there is more water inside the earth than is on the outside. They claim in center of the earth is a mass of molten fiery metal and rock, but it is just a claim, not a known fact. The book of Enoch (a non-canonical book) depicts the Watchers (fallen angels/sons of God) as buried inside the earth: “bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth”. A popular modern theory is one of dimensions. Heaven, hell, hades, paradise, abyss, outer darkness, and tartarus (prison of the fallen angels in 2nd Peter) are dimensional locations as the universe is a dimension. As written in another post, fallen angels, demons, and Nephilim are predicted by some exegetes to return during the last days by opening a gate or portal allowing interdimensional activity. Another thought, not a doctrine.
To Die is to Biblically Sleep
No, dead saints are not skipping from cloud to cloud playing a harp. They are not living in a mansion in the sky. They are not watching you and your wife run around naked in your house. The dead are asleep, either in paradise or hades (hell). Following are a few verses verifying that death is sleep.
And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers….. (2 Samuel 7:12 KJV)
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. (Job 14:12 KJV)
Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death; (Psalms 13:3 KJV)
These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11 KJV)
For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers….. (Acts 13:36 KJV)
For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (1 Corinthians 11:30 KJV)
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:18 KJV)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (1 Thessalonians 4:15 KJV)
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. (2 Peter 3:4 KJV)
Yes, it is true that Jesus said His Father’s house has many mansions and He is currently preparing one for every righteous person, but that mansion will not be available until the Millennium when the new Jerusalem appears on the earth.
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:2-3 KJV)
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:2 KJV)
This article may be viewed adware free at the following link: The Abode of the Dead
Revelation Commentary – Complete Revelation Commentary Complete
Other Articles of Interest: The Whore on the Beast / Nimrod the Assyrian: Asshur / Nimrod and the Tower of Babel / Angelic Body Changes / As It Was in the Days of Noah / The 360 Day Year / Joel’s Army: Part 1 / Joel’s Army: Part 2 / Why Do The Heathen Rage: Part 1 / Why Do The Heathen Rage: Part 2 / The Great Delusion: The Epic Hoax / The beast That Was And Is Not / Who Is The Antichrist? / The Nachash in the Garden of Eden / The Composite Beast / The Antichrist as the Little Horn / Will the Nephilim Return? / Perilous Times
The Kingdom of God Articles: The Kingdom: Heaven, God, or Both / The Law of God for Today / The Kingdom of God: Lost by Adam and Eve / Visualizations of The Kingdom of God / Come Out of Her, My People / The Kingdom of God Today / An Eye For An Eye / A Parable of the Kingdom of God / The Commandments of the Kingdom of God / The Gospel of Mark and the Kingdom of God / The Kingdom of God
The New Exodus Articles: The New Exodus: Part 1 / The New Exodus: Part 2 / The New Exodus: Part 3 / The New Exodus: Part 4 / The New Exodus: Part 5 /
Gospel of the Kingdom Articles: The True Vine & the Branches / The Rock & a Hot Place / Atonement / The Old Testament Covenant / The New Covenant / True Israelites: Part 1 / True Israelites: Part 2 / True Israelites: Part 3
Millennium Articles: The Millennium In the Old Testament / Millennial Assumptions / The Millennium in the Revelation
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The Rich Man and Lazarus
Many will try to use Luke 16:19-31 as proof that there is conscious life after death, and that there is a place of eternal torment (Hell). It is important to point out that Luke 16:19-31 is the fifth in a series of parables as follows -
1. The lost sheep – Luke 15:3-7
2. The lost coin – Luke 15:8-10
3. The lost boy – Luke 15:11-32
4. The unjust steward – Luke 16:1-13
5. The rich man and Lazarus – Luke 16:19-31
Parables are designed to teach great moral principles. Each feature of the parable is not to be taken absolutely literally. The question in each parable is what are the great moral lessons. We get into deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach. Let’s go ahead and assume for a moment that the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is a literally true story-
Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?
Can those in heaven see people burning in Hell?
Can they hear their screams?
Would a finger dipped in water actually lessen the torment of another?
Abraham must have a very large bosom to contain all the individuals who go there!
Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends for all of eternity. So, why did Jesus use this story and tell it as He did? What lesson(s) was He trying to teach?
The Jews had a common story describing death as passing through a valley of darkness and they pictured salvation as fleeing to the security of Abraham’s bosom. The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God’s favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure. The rich man living sumptuously represents the Jews, who had access to the word of God but refused to share it. They were squandering and wasting the spiritual riches for which they were the stewards, as in the previous parable of the unjust steward. The Jews were the fig tree that bore no fruit (Mark 11:13-14, 20, Luke 13:6-9), and the husbandmen of the unproductive vineyard (Matt. 21:33-45, Mark 12:1-12, Luke 20:9-19). Lazarus represents the Gentiles, who the Jews would not minister to. So the rich man in the story, whom the Jews thought blessed of God, ends up in Hell, while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham. Jesus had reversed the outcome from what the Jews expected. This is why Jesus used the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in the way he did. It was not intended to convey the exact circumstances of Heaven or Hell, but rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.
These are the main points the parable teaches:
1. Like the parable of the talents (Matt 25:14-30), the unprofitable servant who squanders what the Lord has given him will be lost.
2. Riches gained by greed, dishonesty or oppressing the poor are not a sign of God’s favor. Wealth is simply not an indicator of one’s salvation.
3. The parable describes a great fixed gulf between the saved and the lost. Jesus clearly communicated that there is no second chance after death. The decision made in life determines our eternal destiny, and it simply cannot be changed after death.
4. Jesus points out that if the Pharisees rejected the clear teachings of God’s word regarding salvation, they would also reject such a mighty, supernatural spectacular miracle as one being raised from the dead.
Note that a short while later in John 11:11-14,43,44 Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. As a result the Pharisees and chief priests plotted to kill Jesus (John 11:53) and Lazarus (John 12:10). So the words of Jesus in Luke 16:31 were indeed prophetic and fulfilled.
So parables are not meant to be taken literally as written. You must read beyond the literal text to see the important principle or lesson(s) being taught.
“We get into deep trouble if we attempt to take each detail of the parable literally rather than seek the lesson that Jesus is trying to teach.”
But we survive unscathed while skipping along blithely, demanding that Scripture does not mean what it says? Your doctrine requires that Scripture does not mean what it says in many cases; notably the case of Samuel being summoned by the witch of Endor. And from where did Samuel come when he was hailed? He came from IN the Earth. Nor was he particularly fond of being disturbed, as I recall. A lying spirit would have put on airs of flattery and ‘happy-to-see-you-ness.’ Lying spirits lie. That’s what they do. Samuel never lied.
“Do people actually have conversations between Heaven and Hell?”
Neither you nor I can say. But the Bible does say… And once more we find you insisting that Scripture means something OTHER than what it says… Nowhere in Scripture does it even suggest that Heaven and Paradise are the same thing. First you assume. Then you demand the two be conflated.
“Heaven would be a terrible place if we beheld the constant, ever present suffering of our friends for all of eternity.”
Again, you assume. Firstly, there is nothing in Scripture about eternal torment. Aionian fire can mean many things: Age-abiding fire is the face-value meaning of the term. When does the age end? Why not at the beginning of the Millennium? Why not again at the end of the Millennium. Scripture tells us there are AGES (note the ‘S’) to come. Aionian means age-abiding. All ideas of the eternal have been added by motive-driven men and institutions – otherwise known as liars.
“The Jews also believed that riches were a sign of God’s favor and poverty a sign of His displeasure.”
As they both can be. Here you are insinuating absolutes where no absolutes should be insinuated.
“…while the poor Lazarus is saved and greeted by Abraham.”
You think all poor go to Heaven? How about Paradise? Do all poor go to Paradise?
“…rather to show to the Jews that they had grave misconceptions about who was saved and who was lost.”
Even as we, almost certainly, do now.
“So parables are not meant to be taken literally as written. You must read beyond the literal text to see the important principle or lesson(s) being taught.”
Your insistence that Scripture not be taken for what it says is a hallmark of your teaching, Amminadab. I will suggest to you, again, in the strongest possible terms, that this is a very serious problem for you.
Seeking After A Familiar Spirit
1 Sam 28:7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
God strongly condemned in scripture what Saul was going to do:
Lev 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.
Deu 18:10 There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch,
Deu 18:11 Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Deu 18:12 For all that do these things are an abomination unto the LORD: and because of these abominations the LORD thy God doth drive them out from before thee.
Deu 18:13 Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.
Deu 18:14 For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the LORD thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.
So, knowing that God condemned it, Saul still went to consult with a witch, a spirit medium and a necromancer (one who claims to consult with the dead).
1 Sam 28:8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
1 Sam 28:9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
1 Sam 28:10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
1 Sam 28:11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
Now, consider an important point. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.
Note also that God was no longer speaking to Saul, and God’s prophets were not speaking with Saul (1 Sam 28:6). So now, are we to believe that a witch was going to thwart the will of God by conjuring up Samuel from the grave, so that Saul could speak with a prophet of God, against the explicit will of God? No witch could do such a thing.
Remember also, the witch at Endor was known for having a familiar spirit. What is a familiar spirit anyway? It is not an angel of God, surely, because of God’s strong condemnation against consulting with them. A familiar spirit is a demonic spirit, a fallen angel in league with Satan. This is what the woman at Endor had, communication with a demon, a demon who was quite capable of impersonating Samuel. It was NOT Samuel who appeared at her summons, it was a demon masquerading as Samuel. The first thing that the demon did was expose Saul’s masquerade to the witch:
1 Sam 28:12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
Now exposed to the witch, Saul continues to consult her:
1 Sam 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1 Sam 28:14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
Note that Saul did not actually see anything himself, he had to ask the witch who is was that she saw. So based on what the witch said, Saul presumed it was Samuel who he was communicating with, that Samuel had been summoned from the grave to speak with him, since the witch said she could see Samuel coming up from out of the earth (not down from heaven). King Saul was putting his trust completely in a spirit medium, a witch, a necromancer, against the expressed will of God. So the following conversation was not between Saul and Samuel, but between Saul and a witch with a familiar (demonic) spirit:
http://biblelight.net/witch_of_endor.htm
“So, knowing that God condemned it, Saul still went to consult with a witch, a spirit medium and a necromancer (one who claims to consult with the dead).”
Here you now argue the opposite of what you did just a few days ago, when you maintained Saul’s crime was speaking WITH a familiar spirit, and not seeking the council of ONE WHO HAS a familiar spirit. You wrote:
“The italicized words in verse 13 are added by the translator and are not in the original Hebrew text. So if we translate 1 Chronicles 10:13 verbatim, it actually reads as follows: 1 Chronicles 10:13 “So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking of a familiar spirit, to enquire;””
/religion/2015/07/pope-right-hell-not-forever-incompatible-with-a-loving-god-where-did-we-get-that-idea-2492674.html
You see that, Amminadab? You argue from a position of convenience. Note that our conversation at the above link ended when I demonstrated the weakness of your position. But today here you are, arguing against that very position from yet another, equally weak, footing.
“Now, consider an important point. Was the witch to summon the spirit of Samuel down from heaven? No. Saul knew the state of the dead, that Samuel was dead in the grave. He was actually asking the witch to call Samuel up from the grave, not down from heaven.”
Whose side are you on? Yours or mine? You are making the case well Amminadab, that the dead reside IN the Earth, not above it in Heaven. You never heard me say the dead reside in Heaven, and you never will. Only the living populate the Kingdom of Heaven. Samuel came UP from within the Earth.
“So now, are we to believe that a witch was going to thwart the will of God by conjuring up Samuel from the grave, so that Saul could speak with a prophet of God, against the explicit will of God? No witch could do such a thing.”
Do you now propose to speak for God? Will you now insist you know what it means when He turns His Face away from the judged? You make bold proclamations, Amminadab. But as usual, your footing is unsure. Why can’t a witch summon the spirit of the dead? Point to a verse saying this can’t happen. Scripture warns against the practice. Scripture FORBIDS followers of Messiah from such a practice. Scripture never says the practice is illegitimate in that it cannot work. Scripture likewise forbids our use of entheogenic compounds (hallucinogenic drugs) for the same reasons. Again, Scripture forbids our participation in occult practices and witchcraft for those reasons as well. The danger is real. Thus, the practice is verboten. The point is WE wouldn’t know the difference between the real and the false. But Scripture says Saul did. Saul was a king of Israel. Who are we?
“A familiar spirit is a demonic spirit, a fallen angel in league with Satan.”
I would agree with this assessment.
“This is what the woman at Endor had, communication with a demon, a demon…”
Then the Word is a liar, Amminadab. Scripture says SAMUEL. Scripture says NOTHING about any demonic spirit. YOU are adding to the Word.
“It was NOT Samuel who appeared at her summons…”
A brazen contradiction of the Word.
“The first thing that the demon did was expose Saul’s masquerade to the witch…”
Since when is exposing subterfuge the hallmark of a lying spirit?
“Saul *presumed* it was Samuel…”
Is that what the Word teaches? It is NOT what the Word teaches. Thus sayeth the Word of God:
“And Saul *perceived* that it was Samuel…”
PERCEIVED = H3045 ידע yâda‛
A primitive root; to KNOW (properly to ASCERTAIN by seeing); used in a great variety of senses, figuratively, literally, euphemistically and inferentially (including observation, care, RECOGNITION; and causatively instruction, designation, punishment, etc.): – acknowledge, acquaintance (-ted with), advise, answer, appoint, assuredly, be AWARE…
“…since the witch said she could see Samuel coming up from out of the earth (not down from heaven).”
I would hope you stop insisting that mistake has validity. UP out of the Earth. Just as the Word teaches. And I would hope you begin (at least ) to re-examine your propensity for demanding that Scripture means other than what it says. Your doctrine has you confounded, Amminadab.
The souls under the altar=the blood of the martyrs.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
http://biblelight.net/Souls-under-altar.htm
When we die, we sleep in the grave – we have no thoughts, no consciousness, no existence at all, until our resurrection. At the resurrection of the just, at the second coming, the righteous will receive eternal life. That is the reward for faith:
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jesus brings the gift or reward of eternal life to bestow on the faithful at the second coming, but not before. The wicked however, will eventually perish forever in the lake of fire (after the 1000 years). Any church that teaches otherwise (that everyone, even the wicked, live forever) is merely repeating the first lie told in the Garden of Eden- “Ye shall not surely die”.
http://biblelight.net/death.htm
“When we die, we sleep in the grave – we have no thoughts, no consciousness, no existence at all, until our resurrection.”
Then the Word of God is found untrue.
Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written…
THE SLEEP OF DEATH
Now notice how Jesus himself describes death-
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
Mat 9:24 He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn.
Mark 5:39 And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luke 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luke 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
In Jesus own words above, death is described to be like a sleep.
Job 14:10 NIV But man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.
Job 14:11 As water disappears from the sea or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
Job 14:12 so man lies down and does not rise; till the heavens are no more, men will not awake or be roused from their sleep.
Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.
http://biblelight.net/death.htm
I must be missing the part where ANY of the above even insinuates that death is a consciousness-less existence; a state of oblivion.
Nowhere in Scripture does ANY such idea exist, Amminadab. You are looking at one side of the equation only, to the exclusion of the remainder of the verses which make your adopted stance utterly untenable.
Paradise Proved to be Heaven from Scripture
Paradise is mentioned 3 times in scripture:
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
2 Cor 12:4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
The above verse says the tree of life is in the middle of paradise. Right?
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, …
…
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
That says the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem. Right?
John 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
That refers to the New Jerusalem, which is the Father’s house, which is in heaven. Right?
Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
That says the New Jerusalem comes to earth from heaven. Right?
Conclusion: the Bible teaches that paradise and heaven are the exact same place!
http://biblelight.net/hell.htm
“The above verse (Revelation 2:7) says the tree of life is in the middle of paradise. Right?
Yes it does.
“That (Revelation 21:10 and Revelation 22:2) says the tree of life is in the New Jerusalem. Right?”
No. Those verses say no such thing. Amminadab, you are adding to the Word. You insist on seeing things the way they should be according to your doctrine, and NOT the way they actually are. Why won’t you let Scripture do the teaching and throw out all doctrines of men? Enough of Seventh Day Adventist teaching. Enough of Ellen White. Follow the Word only.
“That says the New Jerusalem comes to earth from heaven. Right?”
Yes. But the connection you just drew between Paradise and Heaven is a false connection. You steadfastly refuse to let the Word do the teaching. Your eyes are actually inserting meaning into the Book when you look at the verses. That’s because you have failed to follow Messiah’s specific Instructions to follow HIM and no other. You’ve let the doctrines and teachings of men get between you and Messiah. You think that’s okay because you’ve come to trust those doctrines and those teachings. But the warning of Messiah is valid in ALL cases – and not only in SOME cases.
“Conclusion: the Bible teaches that paradise and heaven are the exact same place!”
False. Your conclusion is invalid because you have added to the Word. Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that Heaven and Paradise are the same. Nowhere.
Scrutinize the verses.
Take Messiah at His Word.
“I have also read that it is merely a story that was well known in first century Jewish days and Jesus was just reiterating a format of the story since it would be familiar to His listeners.”
Does that dog hunt? Not when the facts are analyzed. Every word Messiah ever spoke (the words recorded in Scripture) were meticulously chosen for mankind across the age, and never limited in scope to idiosyncratic snippets meant only to be rightly understood by a small segment of His contemporaries.
“…Jesus does not lie or tell tales or half-truths that are not true, even if it might serve a purpose.”
I couldn’t agree with you more.
“…the parables of Jesus indicate they all are based on some spiritual aspect of the Kingdom of Heaven…”
And how.
“…a place called “paradise” for the righteous; and a place called hades or hell for the unrighteous, exactly the locations of Lazarus and the rich man.”
The Garden of Eden is IN the Earth. Adam and Eve were taken from it and placed elsewhere, after they were given skins… that is to say, they were given bodies of flesh.
“Whether or not the unrighteous are being tortured in hell or hades is open to debate.”
Distant proximity from the Most High is torture enough and not something any of us should hope to experience. The dreary shadowy existence in Sheol/Hades must certainly feel like torture to all who partake of its design.
“The Seventh Day Adventists…”
Have you met our brother Amminadab? I see that you have.
“Of course, it could be possible that death is no longer aware of the concept of passing time and one day or a thousand years is the same. Just a thought, not a doctrine.”
Surely, ‘the dead know nothing’ will have a fulfillment we’ve only partially imagined if at all. That’s the trouble with having to imagine an existence in a world we’ve never seen.
“Jesus does not say “heaven” but rather “paradise”.”
A fact most men refuse even to look at. If I suggest Heaven and Paradise are not the same, that is usually the end of any conversation I’ve been enjoying. It’s a ridiculous suggestion to most people. And yet, Scripture delineates and not once does it suggest the two are the same.
“Jesus also went to paradise or the abyss and not to heaven.”
In the Heart of the Earth. The heart has four chambers. Not one. And the heart of man is surrounded by the pericardial sac – literally a sea of saltwater.
“What is the location of the Abyss or Hades or Paradise? The short answer – I don’t really know.”
Just take Scripture at its word.
You wrote:
“Paradise can also be considered upward.”
You then quoted 2 Corinthians 12:4 from the King James Version:
“How that he was CAUGHT UP INTO paradise…”
But the translation is from the word HARPAZO, which I’m sure we’re all familiar with:
G726 ἁρπάζω harpazō From a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications): – catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force).
There is absolutely nothing in this word which demands the sense of being caught UP. Paul could just as easily have been caught AWAY or caught INTO or caught DOWN.
“They claim in center of the earth is a mass of molten fiery metal and rock…”
They also claim the evolution of the species is true and that the Bible is false. Whatever state the Earth’s interior exists in, from a physical perspective, is beside the point. We’re discussing a non-physical existence on a non-physical level of being. That this level of being is LOWER than our present, physical state of being, is the point. It is actually less ‘real’ and less abiding than what we now experience. The higher realms of the Heavens are MORE real than even this, our present world. The higher realms are MORE substantial than ours. The spiritual bodies within the Kingdom of Heaven are MORE real, that is to say, MORE physical, than ours (super-physical) – not less. But the bodies of the dead in Paradise and in the Pit are certainly less real than ours. This is perhaps a (or the) reason why Adam and Eve had to be given skins.
Thanks guys……
good stuff.
The “realness” of spiritual consciousness, is dependent upon individual knowledge of the “realness” of the Word of God. Belief in the Word, makes reality. And it is the only reality we have access to. All other options are delusions…..and there are thousands of delusions to choose from.
One truth….innumerable deceptions.
1 Cor 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1 Cor 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
1 Cor 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1 Cor 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
1 Cor 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1 Cor 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Cor 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
Paul is clearly teaching here that the resurrection from the dead is a critical point to understand for the Christian, for if there is no resurrection from the dead (as demonstrated by Christ’s resurrection), your faith is totally in vain. But, why would Paul say this, if when you died, you continued to live in a conscious spirit form in heaven (as is taught by most Christian churches)? That would make no sense at all. Paul is saying that without a resurrection, the dead would cease to exist forever, in any form at all. Death would be final, a completely futile and hopeless end of existence. Paul clearly put his hope in the promise of a resurrection from the grave, which he says happens at Christ’s second coming.
Phil 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phil 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phil 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Phil 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Paul again addressed the resurrection to the Thessalonian church:
1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring [forth from the grave] with him.
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
“But, why would Paul say this, if when you died, you continued to live in a conscious spirit form in heaven (as is taught by most Christian churches)?”
You refuse even to see clearly those against whom you are arguing. Where are these Christian churches? Are they here on this board, or in the above posted article? No. If you won’t consent to arguing solely from the Word as it is written, won’t you at least tailor your argument to fit the brothers against whom you are arguing?
“Paul is saying that without a resurrection, the dead would cease to exist forever…”
Is that what he said? Or do you presume. Your entire construct is based on presumptions, assumptions and gross mis-readings of plainly-written language.
Mankind is mortal (subject to death). When people die they are unconscious (asleep). All people, good and evil alike, remain in the grave from death until the resurrections. (Eccl. 9:5,6; Ps. 115:17; 146:3,4; Job 14:10-12,21,22; 17:13; John 11:11-14; 1 Thess. 4:13; John 5:28,29 1 Cor 15:20-23)
http://biblelight.net/death.htm
http://www.remnantofgod.org/Immortal.htm
http://www.what-happens-when-we-die.com/
http://www.thetruthabouthell.net/
When people are asleep, they DREAM, Amminadab. Let the record show that Creation makes this maxim plain as day, and does so on an individual basis. When the Scriptures say we ‘sleep’ when we are dead, then just as surely we will carry on in a dream-like state of existence — not in an existence-less state of oblivion — precisely as we saw the Prophet Samuel roused out of his state of existing: a state he was not happy to be disturbed from.
There is nothing at all in ANY of the verses you highlight above, nor again in ANY verse found in Scripture, from Genesis to the Maps, which tells us that oblivion awaits us at the time of our death. The only evidence available to us in Scripture, and available to us in NATURE (which itself is but another iteration of the written Word and a tool for teaching), points directly away from your assertion, no matter how vehemently you pronounce it, and toward another answer entirely.
The Dead are Unconscious
Psalms 115:17 “The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.”
Psalms 146:4 When a man dies, “in that very day his thoughts perish.”
Ecclesiastes 9:5 “The dead know not anything.”
Ecclesiastes 9:10 “There is no work… nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave.”
http://www.what-happens-when-we-die.com/
Are you unconscious when you are asleep?
If so, then I’m willing to spot you ‘unconscious.’ But I maintain that it doesn’t mean what you keep insisting it means.
And quite frankly Amminadab, I can read Scripture just as well as you can, as I believe I’ve made clear. Why on Earth would you insist upon this cold, lifeless, fade-to-black death the way you are when there are NUMEROUS verses in the Book which make it clear that nothing of the kind awaits us when we die?
Why is your death of oblivion so important to you? It should be obvious why what I advocate for is important to me. Your assertion is stark and imposing. It’s also unbiblical — and you can stop plastering verses which say what you think they’re saying. I’ve read them all, dozens of times each.
It’s your reading of the verses I question, Amminadab. Not the verses themselves.
Amminadab,
I am trying to understand your position. You are a member of the Seventh Day Adventist group and probably a minister (considering your original name and avatar picture). You probably have grown up in the SDA and that most likely all the Biblical doctrine and understanding you know is based on SDA dogma. I am not criticizing you because I am always around individuals who consider the dogma of their lifelong church organization is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth regardless of the literal reading of the Biblical scriptures. Nothing can be said to convince them otherwise. It is similar to talking to a wall.
It also appears (and I could be wrong) that very little information comes from your own thoughts but there is always a hyperlink to a SDA website as your proof. Have you actually ever just carefully read a passage of scripture and said to yourself, “just exactly what is this saying to me; could it be saying something other than what I have been told and taught”? Your constant appeal to a SDA website for justification reminds me of a programmed Monarch induced slave.
I realize it is difficult to see beyond one’s lifelong programmed training. It is similar to the 2nd Amendment. I read it as church and state are to be separate meaning the state does not dictate the beliefs and actions of a church and there should not be a Federal religious system. The ACLU and liberals have distorted it to mean that government institutions should never allow any influence from the Christian Church (other religions don’t seem to matter). Same words but two different interpretations except the amendment never says “separation of church and state”. That is the unwarranted interpretation of the ACLU types (completely wrong with disastrous results for the Church).
To quote George Pember again, “denominations and church groups are the result of a human misunderstanding of the Word of God and not the fault of the Word of God itself or a contradiction contained in the Word”. So far Walter has been correcting your comments and I basically agree with Walter. Someone is incorrectly reading scripture – either you or Walter and I. We believe that you are incorrect. If you feel so strongly about your interpretations then write and publish your own articles and discontinue attempting to correct mine and others. There are some that need correcting and I will admit that your viewpoints are somewhat better than others I have viewed, but fall short of my Biblical understanding. I have occasionally written an off-center view, but I do read the offered corrections and if I am wrong then I change it, otherwise I attempt to make my point but Walter is doing an excellent job at the moment. Just think about it; don’t be so brainwashed hard-headed and read the scriptural text in a literal manner and attempt to see for yourself what the English words are actually saying as if it was a newspaper or magazine without preconceived doctrines.
“The scripture passage about Lazarus and the rich man bothered me for several years. ”
Lazarus is a direct Hebrew translation of the Egyptian Osiris. There isn’t as great a difference between the two names as it appears. Eg, Laz – Oz, ar – ir and us – is.
Osiris is the ancient Egyptian god of the underworld, who judges and weighs everyone’s hearts against that of a feather. Horus his only begotten son is born on 25th december via an immaculate conception of his consort Isis. Horus later brings Lazarus back to life.
Osiris had been chopped to pieces by Set, as in sunset, his body parts are scattered and his penis fell into the Nile and eaten by fish. Isis his consort gathers his body back together and fashions a penis of gold to conceive Horus. Horus is born on the 25th december. performs miracles, brings his father Osiris back to life. Then later on Horus dies on a cross and on his resurrection brings all the lost, unjudged souls wondering around in the underworld, back with him.