Rapture: Left Behind or Led Astray
Rapture: Left Behind or Led Astray
On a recent post, I had several comments concerning the timing of the rapture, both pro and con. There have traditionally been three different timing views: pre-tribulation; mid-tribulation; and post-tribulation. In 1990 Marvin Rosenthal published his book, Prewrath Rapture of the Church. After extensive investigation, he and a friend came to the conclusion that the pre-tribulation rapture that Marvin taught in the church he was pastoring, was not correct. (However, that is the individual’s decision)
Below is a list with definitions of the various rapture timings: All of the definitions listed below were copied from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapture
- Pre-tribulation The pre-tribulation position advocates that the rapture will occur before the beginning of the seven-year tribulation period, while the second coming will occur at the end of the seven-year tribulation period. Pre-tribulationists often describe the rapture as Jesus coming for the church and the second coming as Jesus coming with the church.
- Mid-tribulation The mid-tribulation position espouses that the rapture will occur at some point in the middle of what is popularly called the tribulation period, or during Daniel’s 70th Week. However, since the Bible only uses “tribulation” to refer to the second half of Daniel’s 70th week,
- Pre-Wrath The prewrath rapture view also places the rapture at some point during the tribulation period before the second coming. This view holds that the tribulation of the church begins toward the latter part of the seven-year period, being Daniel’s 70th week, when the Antichrist is revealed in the temple. This latter half of the seven-year period [i.e. 3 1/2 years] is defined as the great tribulation, although the exact duration is not known. References from Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 are used as evidence that this tribulation will be cut short by the coming of Christ to deliver the righteous by means of the rapture
- Post-Tribulation The post-tribulation position places the rapture at the end of the tribulation period. Post-tribulation writers define the tribulation period in a generic sense as the entire present age, or in a specific sense of a period of time preceding the second coming of Christ.[68] The emphasis in this view is that the church will undergo the tribulation — even though the church will be spared the wrath of God.
I was looking for a web site showing scripture used to support the pre-tribulation rapture theory and came upon the Bible Prophesy site:
http://www.bibleprophesy.org/pretribrapture.htm
Below is the first proof listed
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-2 KJV)
“The day of Christ is at hand” refers not to the rapture, but to the day of wrath, the seven years of tribulation. {Amos 5:18 below}
[Amos 5:18] Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
The church of Thessalonia must have gotten a letter that said they were living in the tribulation–which is shaking and troubling news. They could not have thought that they were living in the rapture, or that it was “at hand” or “now” because the rapture happens suddenly, instantaneously. And if the report was that the rapture was “soon to come”, that would not be shaking or troubling, but glorious and wonderful. The only option, for the verse to make sense, is that they thought that the rapture had passed, and that they were in the tribulation.)
“The day of Christ is at hand” refers not to the rapture, but to the day of wrath, the seven years of tribulation. {Amos 5:18 below}
Notice that the website commentator states that “the day of Christ” is the “day of wrath” which is generally called the “day of God” in the Old Testament. He uses Amos 5:18 as a proof scripture reference stating that “Lord” in the Old Testament is Jesus Christ.
Earlier in the book of Amos is this verse: Amo 5:16 Therefore the LORD, the God of hosts, the Lord, saith thus; Wailing shall be in all
The “day of the Lord” is the wrath of God followed by the battle of Armageddon and preceded by the rapture. In my opinion, this proof is based on wrong hermeneutics (the branch of theology that is concerned with explaining or interpreting religious concepts, theories, and principles – Encarta Encyclopedia)
Notice that other Old Testament scripture uses the phrase “Lord God”
Jer_46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance…….
Isa_61:2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God
Jer_46:10 For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance………
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Ephraim,
Please review the overview below,
THE SEVEN SEALS : Overview
Jesus Christ in Matthew 24: 8 calls the first 4 Seals the Beginning of Sorrows
The First Seal culminates in The False Prophet that will be cast into the Lake of Fire
The Second Seal is wars and rumors of wars and culminates in World War Three
The Third Seal is Food rationing culminating in famine and disease among the Elect, the 12 tribes.
The Fourth Seal is the final world war: World War Three involving 25% of the earth which includes the Elect.
The Fifth Seal is The Great Tribulation – 2 ½ years of “The Time of Jacob’s Trouble”, this punishes the Elect.
The Sixth Seal is God’s intervention to save Mankind – The heavenly signs.
The Seventh Seal is the one year “DAY of the LORD”, a day is one year in prophecy
The Seven Trumpet plagues are the “Wrath of God” poured out upon man
The 5th , 6th and 7th Seals are the 3 ½ years called the Time of the End, Christ cuts short the Great Tribulation from 6 years to 2 ½ years. God’s 4th and final punishment is 7 years in length this is found in Leviticus 26: The first 3 ½ years are the culmination of the firsts 4 Seals, the last 3 ½ years being the Time of the End starts with the 5th Seal.
God’s punishment is 28 years in length 4 periods of 7 years each, the last period last for the full 7 years, but Christ cut short the Great tribulation which is within the 7 years. the Tribulation was 6 years of the 7 and the Day of the Lord the last year, God cut the Tribulation to 2 1/2 from off the first half of the 7 years.
The first 5 Seals are God’s punishment upon the whole House of Israel for their sins
The Seventh Seal containing the 7 Trumpet Plagues and is the Wrath of God upon the gentiles
The 7 Holy Feasts of God starting with Passover are the outline of God’s Plan of Salvation, The Feast of Trumpets is the return of Christ and the First resurrection of the Saints of God.
There is no rapture only resurrections
My viewpoint of the Revelation:
Seals 1-4: The rise of the beast (antichrist) through his wars and political maneuverings to become king of the world. His subsequent wars and placing his headquarters in Jerusalem as the capital of the world
Seal 5: The souls of those who refused to worship the beast.
Seal 6: Chaos in the heavens and on the earth in preparation for the wrath of God and the rapture of the saints
Seal 7: The wrath of God through 7 trumpets and 7 bowls
Revelation chapters 12:19 are highlights of the inner workings of the first 6 seals
And yes, the 70th week will deal primarily with the Jews but not exclusively with the Jews, but involve every person on the planet. The AC will either be a Jew or pretend to be Jew and will be recognized as a Jew. A person will have to worship the beast (as the so-called messiah of the Jews) or die, whether they be Christian, Muslim, or something else. However it is my belief that God will concern himself with those professing Jesus. Others may get some slack (I don’t really know), but those forsaking Jesus will not be blessed.
(quote)God’s punishment is 28 years in length 4 periods of 7 years each, the last period last for the full 7 years,(unquote)
I would honestly like to know where your theology came from or who it came from.
Thank you, Ephraim
Ephraim
If I can not prove doctrine to my self using only the Word of God – I reject it. Here is where the 28 years came from, sorry it is long but it is mostly scriptures.
Leviticus 26
12 “And I will walk among you, and will be your God, and ye shall be my people.”
13 “I [am] the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright.”
God’s Punishments for Disobedience
(Leviticus 20:1-9; Deuteronomy 28:15-68; 1 Samuel 15:1-9; 1 Kings 13:11-34)
14 “But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; “
15 “And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:”
16 “I also will do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.”
17 “And I will set my face against you, and ye shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and ye shall flee when none pursueth you. “
First 7 years of punishment:
18 “And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. “
In prophecy a “time” is one year thus seven times is 7 years.
19 “And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:”
20 “And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits. “
Second 7 years of punishment:
21 “And if “ye walk contrary unto me”, and will not hearken unto me; I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins. “
22 “I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your [high] ways shall be desolate. “
23 “And if ye will not be reformed by me by these things, but will walk contrary unto me; “
Third 7 years of punishment:
24 “Then will “I also walk contrary unto you”, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. “
25 “And I will bring a sword upon you, that shall avenge the quarrel of [my] covenant: and when ye are gathered together within your cities, I will send the pestilence among you; and ye shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy. “
26 “[And] when I have broken the staff of your bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall deliver [you] your bread again by weight: and ye shall eat, and not be satisfied.
27 “And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me;”
This it the 4th and last 7 years of punishment (total of 28 years) and once it begins there is no repentance, God will destroy Israel in His FURY and place the remnant of Israel into captivity for their sins. Once the 28 years of (4 X 7) punishment has been completed then in verses 40 – 45 God will upon acceptance of that punishment by Israel and upon confession of their iniquities and upon humbling themselves God will fulfill the Covenant He made with Abraham. God will bring the remnant of Israel out of captivity and into the Promised Land. This speaks of the 2nd Exodus that is so great Moses exodus will not be mentioned any more.
The forth and Final 7 years of punishment:
28 “Then I will walk contrary unto you also —IN FURY; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.”
Here the final punishment begins — IN FURY –, the cup of our iniquities is overflowing and Israel has rejected every single warning of God to repent: Why will you die ‘O’ Israel repent and return to ME.”
What follows is the total and complete destruction of all the nations of Israel and Judah, one third will die of famine and disease, one third by the sword of war and the remaining one third will be carried away into captivity. By the end of the 7 years a tithe will remain alive: God’s 10%.
29 “And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.”
30 “And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you. “
31 “And I will make your cities waste, and bring your sanctuaries [churches] unto desolation, and I will not smell the savour of your sweet odours. “
32 “And I will bring the land into desolation: and your enemies which dwell therein shall be astonished at it. “
33 “And I will scatter you among the heathen, and will draw out a sword after you: and your land shall be desolate, and your cities waste. “
All the nations of the House of Israel will be taken into captivity and scattered throughout the world as captives. Verse 36 below states Israel will be in the lands of their enemies and in verse 38 Israel will perish among the heathen.
34 “Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long as it lieth desolate, and ye [be] in your enemies’ land; [even] then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths. “
35 “As long as it lieth desolate it shall rest; because it did not rest in your sabbaths, when ye dwelt upon it.”
36” And upon them that are left [alive] of you I will send a faintness into their hearts in the lands of their enemies; and the sound of a shaken leaf shall chase them; and they shall flee, as fleeing from a sword; and they shall fall when none pursueth. “
37 “And they shall fall one upon another, as it were before a sword, when none pursueth: and ye shall have no power to stand before your enemies. “
In Ezekiel 7: 14 God says “They have blown the trumpet even to make all ready; and none goeth to the battle.” When World War Three comes America and Britain will not even put up a fight.
38 “And ye shall perish among the heathen, and the land of your enemies shall eat you up.”
39 “And they that are left of you shall pine away in their iniquity in your enemies’ lands; and also in the iniquities of their fathers shall they pine (rot, fester) away with them. “
God Remembers Those who Repent
40 “If they shall confess their iniquity, and the iniquity of their fathers, with their trespass which they trespassed against me, and that also they have walked contrary unto me; “
41 “And [that] I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:”
It is God in His FURY that sends all of Israel into the land of their enemies as slaves.
42 “Then will I remember my covenant with Jacob, and also my covenant with Isaac, and also my covenant with Abraham will I remember; and I will remember the land.”
43 “The land also shall be left of them, and shall enjoy her sabbaths, while she lieth desolate without them: and they shall accept of the punishment of their iniquity: because, even because they despised my judgments, and because their soul abhorred my statutes. “
44 “And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I [am] the LORD their God.”
45 “But I will for their sakes remember the covenant of their ancestors, whom I brought forth out of the land of Egypt in the sight of the heathen, that I might be their God: I [am] the LORD. “
46 “These [are] the statutes and judgments and laws, which the LORD made between him and the children of Israel in mount Sinai by the hand of Moses. “
Using the above and the entirety of God’s Word as guide here is – where – we ‘appear’ to be:
In September 1994 a small plane crashed on the White House lawn and the bond market had a sudden sell off and rates rose from 1.5% to all most 8%.
Seven years later:
September 11th 2001 the Twin Towers fell.
Seven years later:
In September 2008 the financial house of America and the world begins to collapse.
Seven year from September 2008 is September 2015.
“If” September 28, 2015 begins the 4th and final 7 years of punishment from God then from the Feast of Trumpets September 25 2014 until the Feast of Trumpets in September of 2015 God our Father and His Son will be pleading with and warning the nations of America and Great Britain and the other nations of Jacob to repent.
I believe the United States is Manasseh and The British Common Wealth is Ephraim, the two sons of Joseph.
The following book written around 1903 by J. H. Allen which can still be found on the net, puts together the scriptures proving who is the House of Israel and who is the House of Judah.
Many scriptures call for the seed of Abraham to be as the sand of the sea and as the stars in the heavens, the Jews are 20 – 30 million world wide — the nations of Israel will be in the hundreds of millions.
The book is “JUDAH’S SCEPTER AND JOSEPH’S BIRTHRIGHT”
and I did not accept this man’s book I wrote a 30 page paper proving it to my self from the Word of God.
From the article:
“The “day of the Lord” is the wrath of God followed by the battle of Armageddon and preceded by the rapture.”
And the subsequent sentence:
“In my opinion, this proof is based on wrong hermeneutics (the branch of theology that is concerned with explaining or interpreting religious concepts, theories, and principles – Encarta Encyclopedia)”
The reader is left unclear as to whether you dispute the first sentence, or merely the arguments for pre-trib rapture.
Am I the only one who thinks this entire argument about rapture timing might become utterly moot at some point in the future? A few of the reasons for this would be the following:
• It is historically a fact that those members of the Body who argue most often and most vehemently about things like the TIMING of their salvation, eventually find themselves to have MISSED their own pre-determined appointments with their Savior.
• Last time any broad-based salvation came to Earth during a wholesale global slaughter of the wicked, only EIGHT people were saved.
• What is abundantly clear in Scripture is that MANY of us will die during the Time of Jacob’s Trouble; during which time the garments of many sinners will be made white by the blood of the Lamb. Is that not a consummation more devoutly to be wished (not to mention humbly, justly and realistically) than to hope for our miraculous and instantaneous extraction from the jaws of doom? Is the office of the purified by Tribulation Fire truly beneath any of us?
• Messiah said clearly: “Shall not God AVENGE His own elect?” Who is being avenged? The ‘raptured’? And again: “Nevertheless, when the Son of Man cometh, shall He find faith on the Earth?” This last portion of the verse (Luke 18:8) should not be so cavalierly disposed of as it is by most rapture enthusiasts. The entire verse literally demands to be scrutinized and pondered rather than to be ignored or glossed over.
I cannot escape the growing suspicion that we’re arguing over the timing of something which, for us, will never happen. Scripture is UNAMBIGUOUS in its report that SOME will be caught up in the air. That may well be eight people, as it was last time. Or it may well be eighty. All we know for a fact is that it will be more than ONE. In this particular instance, I doubt, with the greatest of all possible sincerity, a number which any of us would consider to be a large number.
Romans 5:1-3
“Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience…”
Who among us is pathetically short on patience? I know I am. How will that be rectified? I expect I know the answer. And I expect the answer does not involve me being miraculously snatched away from the coming storm.
Hi there.
We can agree of course that most of us need to pay more attention to our own “calling” and less to whether everyone else believes Jesus will come 3.5 years sooner or later than we think He will. Much hatred is sown among believers instead of us all defending each other and treating each other like brothers and sisters. I even set up a place where those who recognize such things can talk about it. But there don’t seem to be many at all who want to go there.
All I will say here about timing is to make these points:
1. Christians of all prior generations never went through the coming wrath of God, so there is no reason only one generation of Christians should require more refining and testing than any other, including the 1st generation that included the apostles.
2. The 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel had one ‘week’ remaining, and all the previous 69 weeks were completely and specifically about Jerusalem and their Temple. So there is no reason that the 70th will be different; it does not concern the church.
3. Being “miraculously snatched” is not a new concept in either Testament, and the Snatch to come has nothing to do with our own righteousness, just as salvation itself has nothing to do with our own righteousness. Jesus promised to take us to be with him in His Father’s house, not to His Father’s woodshed. We all have endured discipline in this life, some to the point of martyrdom, but the wrath of God is reserved for his enemies and to purify his people Israel.
I’ve said all these things repeatedly, been vilified for it repeatedly, and there is no end in sight to the articles and comments against one, and ONLY one, viewpoint on the timing of Christ’s appearance in the air to take us to heaven. If I’m still here because I am compelled by the Spirit to keep giving futile messages to deaf ears, then so be it. If I am here because I have not had the discipline to stay away, just because the place I thought I was to prepare was God’s will, then my prayer is that God will make this clear to me. Perhaps he’s doing that right now.
I was not attempting to deride anyone’s viewpoint, although I believe that opinions should be changed because it is my belief that the rapture is not imminent. My point is to attempt to demonstrate (as others have attempted) that a belief in the wrong timing of the rapture could cause one to think that since their exegesis of scripture has been wrong all their life, then why bother with it at all, which could cause a lack of faith and deception, and perhaps even thinking that the AC could be the messiah.
Marvin Rosenthall was essentially expelled from his church when he started preaching the pre-wrath rapture instead of the pre-trib version as expected by his congregation. I have read and studied the pre-trib rapture proofs many times and always find there is no actual scripture that proves that position. Many times nearby verses that would disprove the position are left out of the argument.
In my early days of being a Christian, the pre-trib view was always taught as if it was a foregone fact. I went along with the group, but, to me, it seemed as if one had to ignore what the Bible actually said, to come to the conclusion of a pre-trib rapture.
When Rosenthall’s book first came out, I bought it and read it twice. The second time, I went through the scripture references and I was sold because there actually, to me, were no proofs that the rapture would occur at any time prior to the 70th week.
Also, people need to understand that the tribulation of the AC is not the wrath of God, any more that Stalin’s genocide of million of Russians was the wrath of God, but rather the wrath of Satan through Stalin.
Ephraim,
I was not saying you personally derided anyone’s viewpoint. And if there’s anything you want to read about why, after many decades of study, I still hold the pre-trib Rapture view to be soundly scriptural, you can check my profile and see the list of articles I’ve written here. I also make reference to my blogs and books that go into deeper detail.
You may be relieved to know that I have no intention of being drawn into yet another “pre-trib is DANGEROUS” party and won’t comment further in this thread.
It is not my intention of starting a rapture argument. It is difficult to determine ones attitude from a comment but you appear to be somewhat aggravated. I have found that is usually ones reaction, who holds a pre-trib belief, when confronted with the pre-wrath viewpoint. I suppose we will all know one way or the other in a few years. Good luck.
HB wrote:
“We can agree of course that most of us need to pay more attention to our own “calling” and less to whether everyone else believes Jesus will come 3.5 years sooner or later than we think He will.”
But that’s ignoring the point of the exercise, which is to scrutinize the underlying premise, not to mention the attendant psychological and spiritual posture of all forms of rapture doctrine and philosophy, and the structural soundness thereof. In this case, in this one particular sense, the timing of Messiah’s return is barely of consequence, if I may so boldly state. [Not to suggest that Messiah’s return is otherwise inconsequential, by any metric of the imagination.]
“Christians of all prior generations never went through the coming wrath of God…”
A fair statement. But what DID they go through?
Hebrews 11:36-38
“…others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.”
Paul wasn’t here speaking of ‘Christians’ you say? Truth. But I deny the legitimacy of Christianity – as it is commonly understood by most ‘Christians’. I confess ONE House of Israel and ONE Body of Messiah. I believe most modern Christians are every bit as confused and misled by the lies they inherited from their fathers, as is modern Jewry. Paul was speaking of Spiritual Israelites who no one should argue were anything other than members of the Body of Messiah. But the Apostles, having had their conversation in the world AFTER Messiah’s incarnation, cannot arguably be separated from ‘Christianity’ the way many Christians tend to divorce themselves from the Ancient Israelites. And how did it end for the Apostles? They are all recorded to have met with similar fates, save one, as the strangers and pilgrims on the Earth (all members of One Body) mentioned in Hebrews 11.
This naturally runs us headlong into the dilemma of your next point, namely:
“The 70 Weeks prophecy of Daniel had one ‘week’ remaining, and all the previous 69 weeks were completely and specifically about Jerusalem and their Temple. So there is no reason that the 70th will be different; it does not concern the church.”
Does it not concern “the church”? Then “the church” does not abide in The Vine. And perhaps your statement here is true. Perhaps “the church”, if she ever does become grafted into the House of Israel, would at once cease being called “church” and become most readily distinguishable as Israel. The gulf between our viewpoints on this issue is immense, but we can still parse the components of rapture doctrine while standing on opposite sides of the chasm. You know very well I reserve the right to be wrong in my thinking, my beliefs, and the ‘theology’ for which I advocate on these boards and elsewhere.
“Being “miraculously snatched” is not a new concept in either Testament…”
Agreed.
“…the Snatch to come has nothing to do with our own righteousness…”
Agreed. But the ‘snatched’ will BE righteous. “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (Jas 2:26) Those found worthy to be ‘snatched’ will be the fulfilment of the Gospel, and this most assuredly includes all the teachings of Paul and James.
“…the wrath of God is reserved for his enemies and to purify his people Israel.”
There it is. You are either Israel, or you are not. He has only ONE people.
“If I am here because I have not had the discipline to stay away, just because the place I thought I was to prepare was God’s will, then my prayer is that God will make this clear to me.”
Please do recall that the rejection of pre-trib doctrine is not a rejection of Ms. HumanBeing and her person. It is in my experience that you perceive all counter arguments and advocates against this doctrine to be speaking against you, personally. I understand you see the matter differently, but bear in mind you have heard tell of this same observation frequently in the past. When I posted my original reply to this article above, I strongly suspected it would be you who first responded to what I had written. I wasn’t wrong about that. There are more than a few of us here who strive as diligently as you do, seek as faithfully as you do, and who yet find themselves on different legs of what may ultimately prove to be the same path. You look into the Scriptures and you have found ample evidence in favor of this doctrine. I look and I do not find such evidence – I find the contrary. You make your case, and your familiarity with the written Word is on display for all to see. Only a fool would think you anything but mighty in the Scriptures. But consider that your brothers and sisters may well be animated by a driving spirit which makes them your equal in enthusiasm for the Truth. And if we’re wrong and you’re right, then you must suffer it to be so for the time being, and trust that with our continued diligence and pursuit of the Way, the light will be made manifest, even to us, at some perhaps later point in our journey.
“It is not my intention of starting a rapture argument. It is difficult to determine ones attitude from a comment but you appear to be somewhat aggravated. I have found that is usually ones reaction, who holds a pre-trib belief, when confronted with the pre-wrath viewpoint. I suppose we will all know one way or the other in a few years. ”
In my experience, most who oppose pre-trib have been the ones with the attitude problem. My exasperation HERE is with the futility of having to address the same false accusations and refuted arguments over and over again. Let me assure you that I have been “confronted” with every rapture view there is, many times, and have simply found the arguments in favor of them lacking.
Everybody gets aggravated. But this hardly means the viewpoints we hold are invalid.
Beef,
I was agreeing with your statements to the effect that there are more important issues. If in doing so I am now “ignoring the point of the exercise”, I can’t imagine how I would have expressed agreement in a clearer way.
As you surely remember, I have often stated that Christians suffer in this life. I have even cited the passage of Hebrews you mention here.
Also, it was NOT Paul I was referring to when I said that DANIEL’s prophecy is not about the church.
And of course we know that we do not see eye-to-eye on the identities/destinies of Israel and the church, which was the whole point of my first article in the Prophecy series I did this past summer. As I stated there, if people don’t agree on this, there is nothing much in eschatology they will ever agree on, or even be able to discuss.
“Please do recall that the rejection of pre-trib doctrine is not a rejection of Ms. HumanBeing and her person”
Beef, why did you even say this? How have I taken rejection of pre-trib personally, in a way no one else has taken their views personally? You have made this charge in the past, and I thought we had moved past this. In no way have I ever thought I was the only one searching the scriptures; in fact, I’ve repeatedly stated the opposite. As for being the first responder to your comment, I wasn’t aware there was a waiting period.
the reader is left unclear as to whether you dispute the first sentence, or merely the arguments for pre-trib rapture.
You could be correct. I was tired and in a hurry when I wrote and published this post (which is not a good excuse) but it happened.
The truth is: I disagree with the arguments for a pre-trib rapture. I day of the Lord has always been, at least to me, the return of Jesus Christ to rapture the church followed by the destruction of mystery, Babylon and the battle of so-called Armageddon. The return of Jesus (or the day of the Lord) will appear as the Old Testament prophecies state. Also the darkness, as in no sunshine, appears to happen at various times throughout the last 2 1/2 years of trumpets and seals. Some exegetes want to have it both ways when it suits their purpose, or at least that is what I think. I could be wrong. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. (a little joke)
Why look, beef, I do not agree at all with your summation of the afterlife.
Where you there BEFORE you were ‘born” into your current Meat-Wrapper, beefy, the boy spiritual wonder???
Were you “self-conscious then, beefy boy plunder?????
What you present to all on BIN is………………. THE CLASSIC White-MAN-SCAM!!!!
A WHITE-SKINNED MANGOD is not ‘god’, BEEF JERKY!
And, now, you are in your famous SPAM SUPREME mode!
The more beefy, the boy
No matter how many times you write it, NO matter how much YOU want to make “it” “Real”, BEEF JERKY!
As in the Days of Noah and Lot so shall the coming of the LORD be. (the people knew nothing, a normal day.
God knows how to rescue the righteous, aka Noah and Lot…GOD GAVE THESE (TWO) EXAMPLES as a WITNESS to THIS Truth…… ( 2 is witness for a conviction )
Shall Not The Judge Of All The Earth Do Right? , Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?”
NO GOD HAS SHOWN HE can do nothing UNTIL NOAH entered the ARK and LOT LEFT the City…….. read it yourself.
Note: He did not say Jesus will return as in the days of Daniel or the times of Nebuchadnezzar,as if He did we would be killed for not bowing to the Idle, or Placed in the burning fires or the lions DEN…that’s why He says comfort yourself.
REV : Shows multitudes of saved from every Nation and every tongue before the throne IN HEAVEN before the appearance of the Antichrist in 6;2 which surely would be the Wrath of God let loose and we KNOW what holds him back, the restrainer.
This is HOW GOD has shown us The Judge Of All The Earth Do Right? and HE does NOT change; the precedence has been SET….now we’re s my 10 grand… lol
Ignore it as you will, as we are in the last days and after looking at all those naysayers of the Blessed Hope in your video, I say shame on them THEY are the ones being Deceived… Imho
PTR views are upheld by the precedence of rescue “as it is written” let it be
Maranatha ….Look Up
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
—1 THESSALONIANS 4:15-17
There is no debate within the Church that the above event is the rapture. The debate centers around the timing of the event—that is, will the Church be here during the tribulation period or not.
In the above letter to the Thessalonians, Paul described what the rapture is—when Christians are caught up in the clouds to be with the Lord. In his second letter to the Thessalonians, Paul addresses when the rapture takes place. And in the order of events presented by Paul in the first three verses of the 2nd chapter of 2nd Thessalonians, the theory of a pre-tribulation rapture of the Church is proven false.
Here then are the key verses:
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
—2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
I will now parse out these 3 verses to show the order of events Paul presents:
In verse 2, the “day of Christ” is the antecedent of “that day” in verse 3—meaning the “day of Christ” is the day Paul is referring to when he says “that day”.
In verse 1, the “gathering together” is the antecedent of the “day of Christ” in verse 2—meaning the “gathering together”, or rapture, is what Paul is referring when he says the “day of Christ”.
So putting it all together, Paul says in verse 3 to not let anyone deceive you, for “that day”—the “day of Christ”, when we are gathered together with Him, or the rapture—will not come, except there is a falling away and the antichrist is revealed first.
Paul says:
The antichrist comes first and the rapture occurs after that.
Pre-tribbers say:
The rapture comes first and the antichrist comes after that.
The rapture is not some secret, poof-out-of-nowhere event. In Luke 17:30-35, Jesus talks about the day the Son of Man is revealed and says that if someone is on the roof, he should not go down into the house to get his goods. Or if someone is in the field, he should not go back into their house to get their goods. And He says to remember Lot’s wife, and that whoever tries to save his life will lose it.
If the rapture is this secret event where, contrary to REV 1:7, no eye will see, and everyone is poof—gone in an instant—then there would be no opportunity to have a thought process that they could go back into their house to get their goods or there would be no thought process to try and run and save their lives or not.
When Jesus returns, everyone will know it and every eye
shall see it (see REV 1:7).
Whether Christians are taken up or “left behind” depends on what their thought process is at that time, what their inclinations are at that time—that is, if they are watching and if they are ready. Only those who remain firm UNTIL THE END will be saved (see Matthew 24:13).
Not only will the rapture/Second Coming be evident to one and all when it happens, but the Church will know when it is RIGHT AT THE DOOR. When Jesus described the events in Matthew 24, the birth pains (wars, rumors of wars, famine, pestilence, earthquakes), the Church being persecuted by all nations, the false prophets and lawlessness, the gospel being preached as a testimony to all nations, the abomination that causes desolation, the first and second woes (that is, the sun being darkened, the moon not giving its light, the stars falling from the sky, the heavenly powers being shaken), Jesus said in Matthew 24:33 that when you see ALL these events, it (the Second Coming/rapture) will be near, RIGHT AT THE DOOR.
To those of you who say that the rapture is imminent, how can it be imminent if we have not seen ALL the events Jesus described? Tell me those of you who believe in a secret, mysterious, poof-out-of-nowhere rapture, is Christ’s coming “right at the door” right now? You cannot say yes to that, can you? But still, some of you will still say it is “right at the door” right now and nothing else has to happen for it to occur, it can happen at any moment. And you will quote Jesus saying that no man knows the day nor the hour. You use that to justify your “sliding scale” or “blurry” view that it may happen tomorrow, next week, next month, next year, next decade, next century or next millennium. So, if it may happen at any time from now until whenever, how does that constitute “right at the door”? It doesn’t. Yet, Jesus said we will know when it is right at the door.
So then, just what does the time period RIGHT AT THE DOOR mean? It means that there will come a point in time when the Second Coming will be truly imminent. Here is how and when we will know the Second Coming/rapture is right at the door, or truly imminent:
There are 3 woes in the Book of Revelation (see Revelation 8:13). In the 1st woe, which lasts 5 months, Abaddon, or the Destroyer (see Revelation 9:11), comes on the scene. During the first woe, no one dies, though many will wish they could (see Revelation 9:6). But many, many, many will die in the 2nd and 3rd woes (Trumpets 6 and 7). There are 4 angels bound right now at the Euphrates river. When they are loosed, they will kill a third of all mankind (see Revelation 9:14-15; this is during the time of the second woe). The 2nd woe consists of the 1260 day (see Revelation 11:3) ministry of the two who are one. Their 1260 days coincides with the 1260 days of the Antichrist (Mr. 666). Then at the conclusion of the 1260 days of the two witnesses, at the conclusion of the 2nd woe, the 3rd woe will come quickly thereafter (see Revelation 11:14). The 3rd woe occurs simultaneously with, and in concert with, the Second Coming (rapture). It is at the conclusion of the 2nd woe that the 3rd woe/Second Coming will be truly imminent, right at the door.
At the advent of the 3rd woe, at the sounding of the 7th trumpet (see Revelation 11:15), there will be “a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great” (Revelation 16:18). And Christ will come riding on the clouds (see Revelation 1:7) in a more than awesome burst of power and glory to set up the eternal kingdom of God at the glorious conclusion and climatic and cataclysmic exclamation point at the end of the age known as the Second Coming of Christ!
To those that believe in a rapture – at any point – before or during the time of the end.
I have a question based upon Revelation 20: I will comment on each of the 6 verses below and then pose the question at the end.
1 “And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Here is an angel coming from heaven with a great chain and as verse 2 states the angel is come to lay hold on Satan and bound him in the bottomless pit for 1000 years — at this point Jesus Christ must be on earth to rule with out Satan for 1000 years. Christ is to rule for 1000 years on earth, is there a big gap from when Satan is cast into the pit and the 1000 year reign begins? I find no mention of a gap and if Satan is in for 1000 years are there over lapping 1000 years?
2 “And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 “And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Now Satan is bound up and in the bottomless pit for 1000 years and will not be loosed until the 1000 years are complete.
4 “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Go first to the last of verse 4 — “and they lived and reigned with Christ a 1000 years” — WHO lives and reigned? — those that were beheaded, those that did not worship the beast nor his image neither received the mark – and when does this all of this occur? the be-headings and worshiping the beast etc — all occur during the Great Tribulation, during the 3 1/2 years the Beast is given power and his only time to rule over the earth and to make war with the Saints of God that keep the Commandments of God.
The Saints of God that are to reign with Christ for 1000 years are on earth for the 3 1/2 years of the time of the end and all do not worship the Beast and some are killed. The Beast reigns for only 3 1/2 years not 7 not 5 – 1260 days.
What is given to those that reign with Christ for this 1000 years? thrones and judgment, who has a throne and execute judgment,— Kings. see Rev. 5; 10.
5 “But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
In verse 5 it begins by stating the rest of the dead do not live again until the 1000 years are finished, then states “this is the first resurrection” if as stated in verse 6 “blessed and Holy is he in the first resurrection” does the first resurrection refer to those before the 1000 year reign or the the rest of the dead after the 1000 years — let the balance of verse 6 explain:
“but they shall be priests of God AND SHALL REIGN WITH HIM 1000 YEARS.” Those in the first resurrection reign with Christ. Those that live again after the 1000 years can not reign for the 1000 years, they are still dead.
6 “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Here is a statement based upon verses 1- 6 in Rev. 20:
those at the beginning of the 1000 years are in the first resurrection [they are blessed and HOLY] and those that live not again until the 1000 are finished are in the 2nd resurrection after the 1000 years are over.
The question: please show how a rapture is possible in light of Revelation 20: 1- 6 and where it would fit in?
You have the Saints coming up from their graves in the first resurrection to rule with Christ for 1000 years and then after the 1000 years ALL of the balance of humanity that die with out an opportunity for salvation in a 2nd resurrection.
I do not find any need nor any reason for a rapture, and the Saints of God are beheaded during the 3 1/2 years at the end of which Christ returns. If the Saints are to be killed what is the point of hauling them to heaven?
There is another possible understanding of the scripture that states the seed of Abraham will be as the sands of the sea and the stars of the heavens. Most people think this means they will always thrive and become a huge family legacy that is so numerous that it is uncountable. Most of the nations of the world tax their people and therefore have a countable census. Sands of the sea and stars in heaven have one thing in common, they are not countable by man. There is no sum because they are not countable. This could be symbolic that the seed of Abraham will cease to exist, they will become uncountable just as the sands of the sea.
When God promised Abraham that his descendents would be innumerable, that’s exactly what he meant. What kind of promise would it be to say, “Abraham, you will not be able to count your descendents, because you’ll have none to count!”? That would be God mocking him, not blessing him.
Your reasoning makes no sense, esp. when you compare it to “the sands of the sea”. Do the sands of the sea not exist? Or is it that there are so many grains that you can’t count them? Clearly, if something is uncountable, it means there are MANY of them, not ZERO of them.
Why work so hard to make the Bible say that someday there will be no more of those hated descendents of Abraham? Just take it as it’s written, in context, with valid logic.
Genesis 15: 5
human women being
Hated descendents of Abraham???? LOL I realize you are thinking they are Jews, And the Jews are only 20 to 30 million world wide but scriptures call for great numbers.
I read the Word of God and I use logic and I believe my Father over a man or a women, your thoughts have not value to me.
5 “Look towards heaven and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them and He said unto him, so shall thy seed be “,
4 “As for Me behold My covenant (contract) is with thee, (Abram) and thou shalt be a father of many nations”.
Genesis 35: 11
11 “And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply: A Nation and company of nations shall be of thee and kings shall come out of thy loins.”
(1) Isaiah 10: 22, “For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet (only) a remnant of them shall return; the consumption (annihilation) decreed shall overflow with righteousness”.
(2) See Romans 9: 27, Paul quotes Isaiah 10.
Isaiah confirms in 10: 22 the nations of the House of Israel will be in the 100’s of millions at the time of the 5th Seal and only a remnant (Gods tithe or 10%) of the 100’s of millions shall return to the Promised Land by the 2nd Exodus.
(3) Hosea 1: 10, “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea which cannot be measured nor numbered:”
(4) Deuteronomy 28: 62 “And ye shall be left few in numbers whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God.”
humanb
while you are at it answer my question above on Revelation 20: 1- 6
Verses 1 -6 talk only of 2 resurrections and 0 ruptures
“Truthseeker”, I responded to Insight 777′s argument, not everyone else’s. And what’s with “human women being”? Also be advised that I don’t respond to people who think “LOL” is a good way to start a comment.
If you want to know my reasons for the pre-trib Rapture, go to my profile and click on the list of article’s I’ve written here. In those articles and comments you will also find links to material I’ve written in my blog and books, all free online. I have had my fill of answering the same questions over and over.
“your thoughts have not value to me. ”
Well, TruthHater, if my thoughts have “not” value to you, then don’t ask me questions.
Try and figure that out.
God repeatedly asked Abrahams descendants to repent from their evil ways. Jesus sat a Jacobs well and said those that drink of that water will ALWAYS thirst. They do not receive salvation. The descendants of Adam are counted from MALE fathers. Jesus is not of the bloodline of Abraham, Joseph is his adopted father. Jesus tried to show that bloodline does not make one race superior to another. All are children of God, all are equal in the eyes of God. Salvation is based on the individual, not on blood, families, clans or tribes. Each person is judged separately and Revelation makes it clear that more than one church, group of people that share similar beliefs, is recognized by God. Churches have righteous and unrighteous members. Most churches preach their church is the only one that has the truth. Jews think that their religion is the only one and so do other children of Abraham.
So, Insight, do you think “uncountable” means “nonexistent” or “remnant”?
human b
I don’t really care, I was just curious as to how you would twist the Word of God to suit your personalized doctrine. Are you a lawyer?
He has a point about sands OF THE SEA meaning ‘lost to Abraham’
22 For though your people, O Israel, may be like the sand of the sea, Only a remnant within them will return; A destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.
@Truthseeker
I know that ‘Israel’ is destruction for all who inhabit it. That that is why it is exclusively the identity of Christ. ‘Judeans’ have their own state. As should Palestinians.
Not a possibility that the seed of Abraham could ever cease to exist. God gave an unconditional promise to Abraham.
If you think God can lie or changes His mind then you may want to worry about your salvation.
Romans 4:13 For the promise that he SHOULD be the heir of the world, was NOT to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. When the descendants become unrighteous no law or promise is of effect. No salvation if one decides to behave in evil ways. The seed of Abraham are family yet today they kill each other.
Those that see the light and understand that peace on earth is not attainable without caring about the future of all nations and races of people are those that can attain salvation.
insight777
I stated the promises were “unconditional” Abraham needed to do nothing, God swore by Him self.
God committed Himself to give to Abraham’s seed what He had “unconditionally” swore to Abraham. It was not conditional on what Abraham Seed did or did not do. It all can be found in Genesis.
But did you know that Abraham kept all of God’s Law, statutes and Commandments?
Here are two scriptures that tell you what I just wrote above.
Genesis 26: 4 , 5
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven and will give unto thy seed all these countries and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed:
This is an unconditional covenant/contract with future implications for the entire world which have been fulfilled.
5 ” BECAUSE— that Abraham OBEYED My Voice and KEPT My charge, My Commandments, My statutes and My LAWS.”
The 10 Commandments were on earth from day one. That is easy to prove.
The only way peace will come to earth is the coming Kingdom of God with Jesus Christ as its KING will bring it. Christ will bring peace by force if necessary, He comes with the rod of Iron.
Salvation is a free gift, but those called must surrender their will to the WILL of God the Father just as did Christ. “Not My will but yours”. Our lives must become living sacrifices. What we sacrifice is our Will. Which is impossible with out the Spirit of the Father in us.
@Truthseeker
Except Christians aren’t part of the Abrahamic covenant. Murican flighters melting pot definition of a great nation notwithstanding.
Back down your bottomless pit Truthseeker.
damien,
Who then is the Company of nations that come from Ephraim and the great nation that comes from Manasseh which are the two sons of Joseph who was married to an Egyptian women.
the blessing of hundreds of million in population was passed to only those 2 sons? and the birthright (land) was passed to only those two.
You like the vast majority of so called christians believe the 12 tribes are the Jews — not so
the slang term for Judah is “Ju”; Ju dah. The first time the slang term Jew is used in the Bible the House of Israel is at war with the House of Judah, the Jews.
America and Great Britain do fall under the covenant God made with Abraham.
@Truthseeker
I know that ‘Israel’ is destruction for all who inhabit it. That that is why it is exclusively the identity of Christ. ‘Judeans’ have their own state. As should Palestinians. You keep taking them antibiotics.
damiem
your understanding will come at a later time —by by
More relevant is that Abrahams eldest Ishmael likely got the majority share of Abrahams heirs as the youngest son was meant to inherit the house of the father (Abraham) because the older sons will have had moved out of the house and ‘got a job’. Happened with Adam, with Cain (Seth was the youngest son), with Abrahams father, with Abraham, with Ishmael etc.
This will have been the cognitively dissonant mythos behind the idea of the remnant share of things.
damien,
Ishmael’s seed does not count as he did not receive the birthright and the blessings, Jacob did. and Jacob passed the birthright on to the the 2 sons of Joseph. Only Joseph has the Birthright i.e. the land.
Judah inherited the blessings: the Scepter, from Judah came Jesus Christ.
All of the hundreds of millions coming from Abraham are only from the 12 tribes.
Nope. Ishmael counts. Ishmael was following the tradition that said his share would be the lions share. Which it is. The Bible is the account of the heirs of the house and baubles of Abraham. That is a share that was given to the youngest son.
Jeremiah 12:16
And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of my people, to swear by my name, The LORD liveth; as they taught my people to swear by Baal; then shall they be built in the midst of my people.
Moses made his followers swear oaths to follow the Lord God, just as followers of Baal had to swear.
Moses was barred from the promised land, was that a blessing? Was the promise to Moses unconditional?
Isaiah 48:1
Hear ye this, O house of Jacob, which are called by the name of Israel, and are come forth out of the waters of Judah, which swear by the name of the LORD, and make mention of the God of Israel, but not in truth, nor in righteousness.
insight 777
This is not a subject that can be understood by short comments, But:
Leviticus 26 begins by God telling all 12 tribes what He will do FOR them if they obey His Law His Statutes and His Judgments, that is verse 1 – 13, from 14 on God explains what will come if they refuse to obey.
There are 28 years of punishment coming in 4 sections of 7 years each, If by the end of the 3rd period of 7 years of punishment they have not repented God will totally destroy all of them, except a small remnant, and the land as well over the next 7 years. This last period of 7 years is the Time of the End that is very soon to start.
In verse 44 and 45 God says after they have been fully punished He will again honor and remember the covenant of their ancestors and bring them again, the third time, into the promised Land. This is talking about a yet future 2nd exodus, see Isa 11: 11 -16: 35: 1 -10: Jer 16: 14,15; Jer 31: 6 -9 and Isa 27: 13
The promise is to the Nations of the whole house of Israel all 12 tribes, not to individuals per say.
There is much more but hard to incorporate into a short comment.
When someone appoints another to something it is a order to preform an act. For instance a boss appoints a worker to do a job. God does not appoint to wrath. God does not tell people to be wrathful or preform acts of wrath.
That’s not true, in Exodus God the all knowing leads his chosen straight into an ambush of the locals where loads of them get killed. In retaliation God orders his chosen to massacre the lot, every man, women, child and suckling baby.
Pix, are you still thinking God and Lord God are the same? They are complete opposites.
The Lord God took over when Adam and Eve rejected the real God, I Am.
@insight
I appeared to Abraham, to Isaac and to Jacob as God Almighty, but by my name the LORD (I am) I did not make myself fully known to them.
Rapture is an emotion, an internal high otherwise called ecstasy. It is not a literal floated up into the sky high. Claiming such idiocy only proves your poor level of education.
Hey pix
I want to make sure you read the German report from Germany. I have told you Germany will rise again and will rule Europe — well here it begins to take place.
In fact they will control the world economically, militarily and religiously.
Newsletter 2014/11/05 – The German Path to an EU Army (III)
BERLIN/THE HAGUE (Own report) – German politicians, military officials
and the media consider the subordination of combat units of other
European nations to German Bundeswehr command to be a role model for a
future EU army. The integration of a paratrooper unit from the
Netherlands into the German Army’s covert operations and
counter-insurgency unit of the Rapid Forces Division (DSK) is
considered a “milestone of integration.” An armored contingent from
the Netherlands will soon be integrated into a German cavalry unit,
along the same lines. The European Air Transport Command (EATC)
stationed in Eindhoven, the Netherlands – currently under a German
commanding officer – is also being praised as an “effective model of
cooperation.” According to its own accounts, the Bundeswehr sees the
EATC as a clear extension of its “radius of operations,” providing
bases stretching “from be the Baltic Sea almost to Gibraltar.”
more
http://www.german-foreign-policy.com/en/fulltext/58798
One of the most intelligent things Germany has done is to get their country off dependence on nuclear energy. If a nuclear power plant has no cooling system then it goes into fission.
The sun could emit an EMP or an enemy could. Not only would the city near the plant be destroyed but also the water supply used to cool the nuclear plant.
Germany has problems with national defense. A report in the New York Times back in Sept.
disclosed the weaknesses of the German Air Force. They have not kept up with advancing their technology and have let many of their aircraft fall into disrepair needing spare parts that
are not produced in their own country. Also, they are having a hard time getting their countrymen to enlist in the army and are now taking volunteers from their 7.1 million
foreign “guests” that are living in Germany. When a war breaks out, where will the allegiance lie is a question only time will reveal.
Pix no it all. Bet you live in a cave with the rest of them. You are part of the hurd
It’s KNOW it all, not no it all. It’s herd, not hurd.
It’s EMERY, not MikeSavage. He’s also a heretic, not just a turd.
Well guess what. THERE IS NO RAPTURE!
Led astray, as there IS NO RAPTURE described in the scriptures. It is a misunderstanding of the taking of the remnant annointed to heaven to co-rule with Jesus. They also are to fight Armageddon with Jesus. It is a false teaching of false religion.
Mikesavage
I fully agree there is no rapture but How then do you twist Zechariah 14: 1 -9 to match your false doctrine of a remnant co-ruling with Christ in heaven?
It is ALL of the Saints of God that rise to meet Christ and come with Him to the Mount of Olives. This is the First Resurrect.
They are on earth not in heaven –”The meek shall inherit the EARTH.”
Revelation5: 10 “And hast made us unto our God kings and priest AND WE SHALL REIGN –ON –THE EARTH.
The Good News is of the Coming Kingdom of God coming to earth to rule all men with the Rod of Iron and Christ is the KING of the Kingdom.