removed

♫ Take out the papers and the trash ♫

♪ Yakkety Yak…

…Don’t talk back!!!♫♪

Thanks Truthseeker,

Now I’m going to have that stupid song stuck in my head for a week.

“So, at the point the Devil gets tossed into the lake of fire, the beast and false prophet are there and have already been there at that point for a thousand years. They did not burn up and disintegrate.”

I concur with this assessment.

“I’ll leave the door open a tiny, tiny crack pending further analysis to allow for what you are saying.”

That really is all it takes brother. Possibilities should always be considered, in the absence of absolute clarity. None of us have absolute clarity on this matter.

“…a physical body would burn up and disintegrate in minutes and not be tormented for EONS OF THE EONS.”

I believe a purely physical body would be destroyed almost instantaneously in this fire. However, I believe that a body like the body Messiah was given after His resurrection, or something on that order, would NOT be destroyed by aionian fire. When I hear of Spiritual Bodies written of in Scripture, I do not envisage disembodied vapors floating about the ether; rather I envisage solid, tangible, tactile vessels, which can do things no purely material body could do – such as not die. If we are to be as He is, then we will have bodies as He does. Why wouldn’t the enemy and his boys have something on a similar order?

One final note on that – if the AC and the False Prophet are not human, it could stand to reason that their bodies would not be destroyed in aionian fire, merely by virtue of the fact that we don’t know what they’re composed of. I’ll bet they’re not made of dust, the way we are.

“…some say “into the ages of ages” is a Greek idiom that does indeed imply eternity.”

Yes, Strong’s Concordance for example. So too would all proponents of the doctrine of Eternal Punishment (this means ALL of the Protestant Denominations and EVERYONE who walks out of a Christian Seminary carrying a degree). The doctrine is taught, so it must be defended – even in the face of apparently contrary evidence, which is what the verses in Greek are. The term is this, and no other: “Into (or ‘to’) the EONS of the EONS.” And what that means can be disputed, but the claim that it equates with eternity strains credulity in the extreme. I would add, the term indicates “INTO” (or ‘to’) which implies only a ‘partial’ period. The term does not state “FOR ALL OF THE EONS OF THE EONS.” It merely states “INTO the eons.”

The fact of the matter is Scripture has very distinctly and very completely rendered the wording in an imprecise and open-ended fashion which might mean many things. What it does not mean is something it does not say – which is ‘for all eternity.’ If a certain sense isn’t included in the original verse, you won’t find me insisting that the verse should be understood by us in that certain sense. It is for this reason, in the main, that I reject the doctrine of Eternal Punishment.

“…must not the torment in fire be eternal in order to be congruent with ISAIAH 66:24?”

Isaiah 66:24 sounds like he is writing in open-ended (some might say ‘eternal’) terms. But this manner of description is echoed elsewhere, in Revelation and Jeremiah for example, with fire which ascends forever and ever. Do you feel compelled to understand this description of the rising flames by the same terms you wish Isaiah to be understood?

“A side note: According to Google Translate (I can’t vouch for how good it is) REV 14:11 says “torture these ever and ever”.”

This is the same phrase:

EIS AIONAS AIONON

‘Forever and ever’ is not a faithful translation, and certainly not a literal one. Plug the YOD HEY VAV HEY (Tetragrammaton) into Google Translate and see what you get. They’ll also tell you that Messiah’s Name translates into English as ‘Jesus’ – which is preposterous. Have a look at Young’s Literal:

‘…and the smoke of their torment doth go up to ages of ages…’

Beyond that our conversation will have to take a turn into a realm of the imagination of man. We’ll have to wait our turn to find out for certain. But the idea that the doctrine of Eternal Punishment is to be found in the verses of Scripture is simply a bad idea. It isn’t true. What is contained in the verses is something completely other. And again, the idea that a rock-solid FOUNDATIONAL doctrine can be built around these obscure verses, is an idea that I, as a member of the jury, find has failed to be proven. I therefore deny the entire doctrine as legitimate, and find rather the doctrine being something birthed from the imagination of man – or worse – put there on purpose by something a little smarter and craftier than man.

BREAKING NEWS ALERT: I have closed the door on this issue of eternal torment vs. eons of eons torment BEEF. Let me explain why. If you can point out an error I made in my Greek or uncover something else, I am willing to listen to you and potentially open the door a tiny crack again, but as of right now, I have closed the door and the issue is sealed for me until further notice. Read on and I elaborate.

BEEF said:

“Isaiah 66:24 sounds like he is writing in open-ended (some might say ‘eternal’) terms. But this manner of description is echoed elsewhere, in Revelation and Jeremiah for example, with fire which ascends forever and ever. Do you feel compelled to understand this description of the rising flames by the same terms you wish Isaiah to be understood?”

Yes, yes I do. I believe all the following Scriptures must be congruent or in harmony:

8 For it is the day of the Lord’s vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

—Isaiah 34:8-10

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

—Isaiah 66:22-24

“And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

—Revelation 14:11

“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

—Revelation 20:15

HERE IS THE CLINCHER FOR ME BEEF (the following 2 verses):

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting (αἰώνιον) fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:”

— Matthew 25:41

“And these shall go away into everlasting (αἰώνιον) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”

— Matthew 25:46

So given that “into the ages of ages” is a Greek idiom that does indeed imply eternity, and given that here we have in the Gospels Jesus specifically saying those to His left on Judgment Day will be tossed into everlasting (αἰώνιον) fire for everlasting (αἰώνιον) punishment, I hereby officially close the door on this matter. This is pretty clear to me. Jesus is not ambiguous here, He is not saying they will be punished INTO THE EONS OF THE EONS, He specifically says they go unto EVERLASTING punishment in an EVERLASTING fire. Case closed.

Go ahead and try and prove me wrong BEEF. If you can explain otherwise, I’m all ears.

“Does any believer really want to dispute ETERNAL life in Jesus/Yeshua?”

If that’s what it sounds like I’m doing, I’m not. Aionios fire, aionios punishment, and aionios life ALL HAVE ONE THING IN COMMON – they don’t last forever.

That’s right – aionios life does not last forever.

Did I just deny that the saints are to BECOME immortal and then cannot die? No, I did not. Death is destroyed. The final triumph is over death itself. All of those who are resurrected in the first resurrection (at the least) are granted immunity from death.

This however does nothing to change the fact that aionios does not mean eternal. Aionios is of and related to a SPECIFIC PERIOD OF TIME. Eternity is the exact OPPOSITE of time.

It might help matters if you ceased from thinking of eternity as a really, really long time. Eternity has nothing to do with time. We think in terms of linear timelines: Beginning, middle and end. Eternity had no beginning, nor will it have an end. Eternity IS.

So no, am123, you have not closed the door on this matter at all, unless you care simply to claim victory and to move on.

BEEF,

Please bear with me as I am not asking this to try and win an argument. And again, if you follow the context of my posts in this thread, I originally said I would keep the door open a tiny crack on this issue pending further investigation. And since I have done some further investigation into this issue, I have closed the door in my mind on this issue. And I ask the following not to seek victory in an argument, but to flesh out the proper meaning and context of Scripture. So in that spirit, I ask the following:

In Hebrews 1:8, the Greek used is “αἰῶνα τοῦ αἰῶνος”, which has been translated as forever. So what I am asking is this an instance of Greek that truly means forever, or is it one of those instances that you say means something less than eternal? If it is the former, great. If it is the latter, then what about this: Hebrews 1:8 is just a reference to Psalm 45:6. So the Hebrew in Psalm 45:6 has been translated as “forever and ever”. I don’t know how your Hebrew is, but if the Hebrew truly means “forever and ever”, doesn’t that mean that Hebrews 1:8 must mean “forever”?

Truthseeker wrote:

“God is unlimited and is always becoming greater.”

Forgive me, but I just cannot help myself from pointing out the obvious flaw in this statement. As one who values logic as highly as you seem to, according to much of your commentary, you will see how, according to logic, the above statement is an impossibility.

There can be no such thing as infinity plus one. Either a thing is infinite, which is to be utterly without limit, or it is not. The infinite cannot be added to or increased. Would that the infinite could be added to or increased, then it could not have been infinite to begin with.

Eternity is infinite.

An EON is not.

EONS, likewise, are not infinite.

That is according to logic, which, as I am fond of reporting, fails in the face of the infinite.

“Do you agree names will be added? They have in the past and will in the very near future.”

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob knew YHWH as EL SHADDAI. I AM THAT I AM identified Himself to Moses, and in doing so, He used a Name that had hitherto not been known by Moses nor by his contemporaries. I dare say that neither YHWH nor I AM THAT I AM were ‘new’ Names.

Are there any names which have not yet been used? I doubt it.

פֶּלֶא יֹועֵץ אֵל גִּבֹּור אֲבִיעַד שַׂר־שָׁלֹֽום (Pele-yoez-el-gibbor-avi-ad-sar-shalom) is ONE of Messiah’s given Names, written in Isaiah chapter 9:

“And His Name shall be called: Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, Father of Eternity, Ruler of Peace.”

And please note, this is not a list of attributes applied to the Messiah, rather this is a SINGLE Name. Has anything been added here which had not been IN THE BEGINNING?

“God the Father was not a father until Christ…”

Far too many assumptions must be made in order for us to make such a statement. Perhaps it is true, but perhaps it isn’t.

“Christ was not a Son until He offered Himself here on earth…”

Messiah is not infinite. Messiah is not without beginning. Messiah IS The Beginning.

“God will create without end.”

If so, then He has CREATED without beginning. If He has not created without beginning, then I deny that He will create without end. My hypothesis is that creation had both a beginning, and will have an end. I am perfectly willing to be wrong about this, and in fact I partially expect to be wrong, but logic, to me, dictates that creation had both a beginning and will have an end. Do bear in mind, however, that eternity has neither beginning nor end.

“I try not to limit God in any way.”

I too believe that He is without limits. But I do not believe the same thing about His Creation, nor do I believe it about His creat-ING.

BEEF said:

“Is it your contention that Messiah’s Kingdom will be utterly and completely without end?”

YES, YES, YES, YES, A ZILLION TIMES YES!!!!!!!!

See below for more info.

BEEF said:

“I find that EVERYWHERE in Scripture, where the translators have handed us translations expressing ‘eternity’ or ‘forever’, we have been handed problematic translations. I do find the concept of ‘forever’ expressed in Scripture, but only by implication, and never directly.”

Let me state my case on this matter, which is clearly different than your take on the matter. But first let me say I appreciate your attention to detail and the information you provide. I have a clearer understanding on some of these issues because of it and I am better able to defend my position on this matter than I was before this whole discussion started. I understand better why some don’t believe in eternal torment because of the things you have pointed out. So with that, I will now state my case.

As you have pointed out, there is a question about the Greek wording (and apparently Hebrew as well) when trying to express eternity or forever. And this nuance has led to this controversy. So the student of Scriptures must take in everything they know and understand of the matter and decide for themselves how these things should be interpreted and understood. Basically, do these Scriptures which speak in English of eternal torment and an eternal kingdom truly mean forever and ever or do they mean over a finite period of time? In English, it is clear these matters speak of eternity. But the Greek brings the question of eternity into question because I believe an English translation of the Greek used is “into the ages of ages”, as we discussed above.

Here is my take: first, why did they use this phrase “into the ages of ages”? Perhaps because whatever they were talking about (torment or life in Messiah), they were trying to convey that it was not contained in one age but transcended across the ages of time. Perhaps it is similar to the English phrase of “from age to age”. For example, we are now in the age of grace, which ends at the Second Coming. When Jesus returns and sets up His kingdom, it is another age. So perhaps the Greek phrase used for “into the ages of ages” means something like across ALL ages, for all time to come, and not a finite period ending in a specific age. This is given credence by the fact that “into the ages of ages” is a Greek idiom that does indeed imply eternity. And Strong’s Concordance also supports that it speaks of eternity.

But the clincher in my mind is this: when you look at all these Scriptures which speak of eternal torment and the eternal kingdom of God, if you try and make it a finite period of time, it does not fit with or is not in harmony with the Scriptures which are open ended and leave no doubt they are speaking of eternity. When you try and make the case that these Scriptures in question are only speaking of a finite period of time, you end up trying to force a square peg in a round hole. But if you believe all the verses in question speak of eternity, all the Scriptures fit together like a hand in a glove or a key in a lock. For example, in one of the posts above, we discussed this verse about the reign of Messiah:

“Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.”

—Psalm 45:6

And yes BEEF, it is my contention that Messiah’s Kingdom is without end. Daniel made this abundantly clear in no uncertain terms:

When interpreting Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, Daniel spoke of the fourth kingdom, which is the kingdom of the antichrist, and then spoke of the kingdom that would follow that one:

“And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

—Daniel 2:44

Later on, Nebuchadnezzar said this:

“And at the end of the days I Nebuchadnezzar lifted up mine eyes unto heaven, and mine understanding returned unto me, and I blessed the most High, and I praised and honoured him that liveth for ever, whose dominion is an everlasting dominion, and his kingdom is from generation to generation:”

—Daniel 4:34

And in chapter 7, Daniel prophesied this:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

—Daniel 7:13

Here, Daniel leaves no wiggle room and no room for doubt when he speaks of a kingdom that is everlasting, a kingdom which shall not pass away, a kingdom which shall not be destroyed. Any doubts raised about eternity in Hebrews 1:8 and Psalm 45:6 for example are clearly erased by Daniel’s no uncertain terms about the kingdom of God. The kingdom of Messiah is forever and ever. It shall have no end. It will not pass away.

Likewise, just as Daniel verifies and clarifies for us that all these New Testament Scriptures speaking about the eternal kingdom of God do indeed mean eternity, Isaiah 66:24 does the same with regards to the question of eternity in regards to torment.

So I would ask all who are seeking the truth of this matter prayerfully consider and meditate on these things and see if your heart of hearts, if your spirit man, resonates with what I have written here. I have done my part to try and make my case clear to you. Now the ball is in your court. I rest my case.

am123 wrote:

“And yes BEEF, it is my contention that Messiah’s Kingdom is without end. Daniel made this abundantly clear in no uncertain terms…”

Did he? Daniel used precisely the same terminology which I find objectionable in all other cases, if the wording is meant to be put for the concept of eternity. Daniel here states that the Kingdom shall NEVER BE DESTROYED. Okay. The Kingdom will never be destroyed. That is NOT the same thing as saying that the Kingdom will persist, without end, forever and ever. Here is what Daniel states on that matter, in actuality:

“And SHE (the Kingdom) shall be confirmed for the eons.”

[Incidentally, there is an on-line interlinear where anyone reading this can view the verses in Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek. http://www.scripture4all.org/

This verse does not include the concept of eternity. The concept of eternity was ADDED by the translators. I can PROOVE that the translators are in error in many other places, just as I can PROOVE that Strong’s Concordance is in error about other significant matters. And I do not lightly esteem the word ‘PROOVE.’ The concept of an eternal dominion of Messiah is NOT included in this verse from Daniel – unless we ADD it. I intend to do no such thing. I have been warned about adding to and subtracting from the Scriptures.

You then quoted Daniel 4:34. Brother, you need to begin looking at these verses in their native language. Barring that, you should at least check the wording in Young’s Literal Translation, or another word-for-word translation. Here is Young’s translation of the same verse:

“And at the end of the days I, Nebuchadnezzar, mine eyes unto the Heavens have lifted up, and mine understanding unto me returneth, and the Most High I have blessed, and the Age-during Living One I have praised and honoured, whose dominion [is] a dominion age-during, and His Kingdom with generation and generation.”

Once again we find that if the concept of eternity is included anywhere in this verse, it is done so merely out of speculation. Foundational doctrine should NEVER be based on such speculation.

We find the same again in Daniel 7:14 – the only difference here being the inclusion of wording which states that the Kingdom shall not pass away. The wording is discussing the nations and the people, and the ‘what’ and the ‘when’ of the verse is the ages.

“His Dominion is an OLAM Dominion, which shall not pass away….”

Scripture plainly states that Messiah relinquishes rule to the Father. Messiah’s dominion is not eternal – the Father’s dominion is eternal. I can find evidence for eternal existence for the Father, for His Dominion, and for His Kingdom. I cannot find scriptural evidence for the eternity of Messiah’s rule. Nor can I find scriptural evidence which plainly supports the notion eternal punishment.

“[A] kingdom that does not pass away is an eternal kingdom.”

I would tend to agree with that statement.

But I do not agree that Messiah’s dominion of the Kingdom is eternal, the clincher being something of which I have no idea about — that being Messiah’s relinquishing dominion to His Father and YHWH becoming ALL IN ALL. Does Messiah become YHWH? Does YHWH become Messiah? Both? Neither? (And here I would hope that not anyone reading these words deigns to offer an explanation of ‘ALL IN ALL.’ That would be the height of ‘rediculosity.’ Theories are always welcome though, but let them be stated as such.)

For the record, I agree with you on the following:

The Most High is ETERNAL.

His Kingdom is ETERNAL.

And for the record, I stipulate the following:

Messiah’s reign is not eternal — at least, not the way I’m reading the verses. He lays the Kingdom at His Father’s Feet, sounds pretty straight-forward to me, even considering the scope of the subject matter.

Aionian Life is not eternal. But this is not the same thing as saying that those who participate in Aionian Life do not persist INTO eternity. I rather expect that once one has entered eternity, one is always there; ‘always’ being a poor and an insufficient word to the task of this particular description.

Aionian Punishment is not eternal.

This understanding stems from my reading of the Verses only. I do not consciously attempt to force Scripture to comply with what I would like it to be — neither do I believe you attempt the same. My conclusions in these matters are only based on my understanding of as many of the elements of this puzzle as I have managed to recognize and to consider.

“…forever and ever, or at least eons of eons…”

Woops. Did I just catch you making a distinction between the two?

Zeddy Intedestink…

…

“…setting the record on BIN for the longest back and forth conversation.”

BAH. Me and Crosby (Mr. ‘Yes2Truth) went back and forth every day for about three weeks once. I resolved not to let him get the last word, because he always insists on having it. Asinine. I ended up losing my patience and my composure, called him a bunch of names, and abandoning the thread in a snit — having accomplished nothing.

At least when you and I get in the ring for spiritual jiu-jitsu, there is actual armor-checking going on. None of this is time wasted brother. I wonder what the next topic will be…